Paganism vs. Christianity

I agree that we need to have more of an open mind. When one religion goes off the rails it is superceded by the next. I wonder what the next fad will be to teach principles and decency.

Great article!

I am the way the truth and the life, noone can come to the father(God) except through me." Jesus

i am not completely sure
On the remark of Jesus being born on the 25 of December, as far as i know it is that the catholic church set that day as a holiday, like allot of the holidays that christens celebrate. When people are converted to a new religions they bring some part of their culture with them. Look at some black churches that have African traditions.

Nice Article

i have no respect for the christian church, pagans were converted by force. if jesus was from jerusalem then why did christians kill jews in the crusades. christians have funds for the poor. if this is true then why as an organisation is the church of England one of the richest organisations in the world

The christian religion is first (And why is that? B/c of GOD) and someone had to come up with another religion b/c of "What? This man says he is GOD's son? I can do better, let's have many gods and deny our maker" Sure, you are all nice and all I'm sure but I feel sorry for you pagans. Ignorance and stubborness you have, what a shame. I agree with Cassie.

Research Jesus Christ and what HE said... all you mention is what the Catholic Church has done in the past. Not every person who claims to be a follower of Christ is one. Jesus says himself that on the day when he judges the world people will come up to him and say "Lord, did we not cast demons out in your name and spread you word" to which He will say "I NEVER knew you".

Jesus is the only way to the Father, period. It is not politically correct, it is just correct.

Paganism failed because it answers NONE of the answers mankind has sought to know - it became hollow ritual, legalistic and corrupt (example Rome).

Open yourself up to both sides of the debate, and make an educated choice for Christ. He knocks at the door, open and let Him in.

In Christ
+Rick

Rick, why is it that you yourself havent researched paganism??
dont ask others to do what you yourself wont do.



the point of this discussion was to see both sides, all your doing is trying to convert in a very dumb way

Cassie,
The bible can say Jesus said whatever it wants hims to say. Doesn't mean Jesus said it.

Raquel,
If you actually research your history, you will discover that Christianity was not first. In fact, it is one of the youngest religions. The first monotheistic religion was Judaism. Next was Islam, then Christianity. But before monotheism was polytheism, or paganism (as we call it now). The idea of one God is a relatively new idea within the history of religion. Before Judaism, nobody believed in only one God.

Rick,
You aren't keeping an open mind. You're proselytizing. If you had an open mind, you would not need to make statements like that. And proselytizing goes against the teachings of love and tolerance within your bible. Nice try, though.

Darkangel,
Wonderful article!

Rick-

If you call ancient Rome corrupted (I'm assuming you meant the time period in which Jesus lived) and evil because of its religion, how can you not look at your own religion and say it's not corrupted?

Ever actually listen to the words your bible preaches about? "Don't point at a speck in another man's eye when you have a log in yours" or whatever.

Christianity is not innocent of killing and injustice. Ever heard of the witch hunts? The Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? The Holocaust? The KKK?

The Church now is probably one of the richest organizations in the world, and preachers and priests talk about giving to the poor when the Pope lives in his own country in a life of luxury. Tell me that is not corruption.

I was raised a Christian, with a pastor as a father and a devout mother as parents, but still I know better than to believe what the Bible tells me.

Great article

Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do.....

Actucally The Empty Crux, there is one ancient historian that states that there was really a man named Jesus. The historian's name was Josephus. HOWEVER, he does not mention any miricles or anything of that nature. He only said that he lived, he was a good man, he was kiled by pilate. He does not mention really anything else of Jesus.

ELC, yes you are right. Research and studing history showed that Jesus was born in the spring time because that was the time of year when the shepards were out.

And for Rick, you live in the city of fools, travel the road to nowhere and blind to its exits, you hate what you do not understand. And jesus is not any reason to destroy the earth or disrespect her. Last but not least, RICK and DJ, Jesus was not a belief pusher, neither should be you.

i dont think its fair to for people to arm twist anyone into receiving jesus if they dont want. HOWEVER, please note the bible says that it is appointed for ever man to die once and after that to face the judgement. this is true everyone is going to die some day maybe you have 20years left or one month or one hour but the fact is you will die and guess who you will meet? I am just wondering what will happen to people who mocked Jesus but it will be too late. Personally I think you may be in grave danger if you are busy hating Jesus and if you have not sought Jesus' cover but then dont then dont let us Christian freaks force you only you can decide to do that for yourself. I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats's how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I was raised full blown Christian and I better not ever think or doubt Jesus Christ. Why? Because it says in the bible not to question. I am interested in Paganism because I am very much in touch with Mother Nature. I know there is a higher being. I just have so many questions and I feel guilty for being uncertain.

Ok Paganism is evil. Want to know why? becuase its made up, its corrupted, and it has much to do with sacrofices and fake traditions.
REASONS WHY PAGANISM IS EVIL-

1.Paganism is evil becuase it\'s made up. People made paganism so they could add a alternative part to there magick doing. They also made it up to find who the creator was but they were wrong werent they?

2.It has to do with magick and occult practice.(SACREFICES, DEPENDING ON YOUR SELF TO BANISH SPIRITS AND BRING MIRACLES, CONTACTING EVILL SPIRITS, DANCING UNDER THE MOON NAKED WITH HERBS, ETC.

3.It condrodicts itself. Have you ever noticed that pagansim says its good yet many things in it are bad? Have you ever notcied that new MADE UP gods come in every 100 hundred year or so? From these condorodictions paganism is FULL BLOWN EVIL!

Reasons pagans are wrong about christianity-

1. Pagans say that we adopbted there traditions. We christians except the truth. Have you ever noticed why we celebrate Christmas and Easter? Why is christmas not yule? Heres you answer--- Its not the Yule tradition becuase on this day we dont celebrate the seasons as you do on Yule. We celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. We also celebrate good friday and holy saturday. We may use some objects such as candles but we do NOT do your rituals on this day. Christmas it also on the 30th of December and Yule is in the 20\'s of december.---
Why isnt Easter a christian tadition heres you answer--- Just becuase we call it easter and do egg hunts for FUN doesnt meen its your tradition. The real name for are day is \"The Ressurrection\" Not easter. We only participate in egg hunts for fun for our children not for some ritual. Our day celebrates the Ressurrection of christ and not your trdition of easter.

2.Pagans say that christianity condrucdicts itself because they claim people WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS rob, steal, and murder. The truth is those people arent really christians. Just becuase they call themselves christians doesnt meen they are christians. They just say they are and they really arn\'t. Also when your a christian it is evil to get inot WITCH HUNTS. Why? Becuase you are hunting for EVIL and that evil will come to you and destroy you.

Some Reasons why Christianity is good-

1.We worship the TRUE creator

2.We do moral deeds to please GOD and others

3.We are healthy. We try to live good sinless lives as pagans dont believe and sinning and the devil and they dont care rather they do and WORSHIP these things.(this is another reason why paganism condrodicts its self). How do you know that the devil is not behind your gods. How can your gods be gods if they can be destroyed on the fact that you worship nature and nature can be destroyed?

Reasons how Christianity is evil-

~BLANK~
Nothing
NO EVIL ZONE

I agree with the slave princess. How can you \"christians\" try to justify your agruments with verses from your own holy book? The book was written by men. I could write my own religious book and quote out of it. It makes a person appear quite narrow minded by not looking at the total picture. There are so many different factions and perceptions of christianity that noone knows who is right and who is wrong. Is it really a wonder why there are so schisms in the religion?

Is it mere coincendence that a lot of christian holidays occur around that same time as pagan holidays? Of course..because the christians blended a lot of pagan traditions in order to convert people into their religion. For instance Easter..
This is the quote from Mac.
The real name for are day is \\\"The Ressurrection\\\" Not easter. We only participate in egg hunts for fun for our children not for some ritual. Our day celebrates the Ressurrection of christ and not your trdition of easter.

If this is so why don\'t you call the day Resurrection and stop participating in egg hunts. This ritual has nothing to do with your holiday. Eggs and Rabbits are symbols of fertility and represent the celebration of the vernal equinox. Why would you have your children partake in a ritual that is unchristian and/or even evil?? You are obviously contradicing yourself and the ones you are guiding. Also I am not sure about Christmas being on the 30th.

Jesus is your truth and if YOU want to go to heaven it is through him. This is something else that is written in \"your\" holy book. Just because it is written do you believe. Perhaps you should do some research instead of blindly following the masses.
As far as corruption is concerned. As mentioned before the crusades were committed in the name or your religion, christianity. You really want to mention corruption? Why is the catholic church so wealthy and why are holy man of christianity commiting adultery and molesting children. Why? from what I gathered from reading other\'s comments because they are not really christians, even if they claim to be. That is an excellent defense *sarcasm*. Stop trying to force your religion on others. If it is right for you, then YOU follow it without trying to convert others. Have respect for others\' beliefs. They are not wrong because they have different views.

Lastly, if it comes from some made up book, was responsible for killing thousands of people, stole traditions from other religions, followed by hypocrites, condones fault-finding whenever possible, was created as a form of political containment long after paganism and even after other monotheistic religions, lacks physical evidence to support it..does not make it right. Faith does not equal fact Sorry!

John 3:16- "For God so Love the world that He gave His one and only Son, that who so ever believed in Him would not perish!"

Do you really not want to believe in a God like that? Who would send his Son for you. of course not ANY Christian was or is perfect, only God was and is perfect. But God Sent His only son to earth, so that He could relate to us as a person, and show that we can do good in the world and then HE died for our sins.
So that everytime we do sin again, he will forgive and still love us no matter how bad our sin.

I would rather live and believe in a loving God that would do nothing else but love us and do whats best for us, then to live for nothing at all. Thats my point!

God bless.

wow i thought i heard it all but there is alot of crying going on here im a pagan and im about peace mother nature not condemming ones faith think of it this way is there any difference in telling a kid if he doesnt do something he will go to hell thats child abuse plain a simple

You know, if you "Christians" want to start spouting fallacy and lies about Pagans while at the same time "reminding" us how wonderful the sacrifice of Jesus was, let me remind you that there is a God who suffered much more than Jesus ever did, and his name is Odin and he sacrificed so that we may have the knowledge to take care of this world until Ragnarok where we will all fight like warriors....

Odin hung by the neck from the Tree of Life for 9 days, his side pierced by his own spear, sacrificing himself for himself and us all. When he saw the runes of creation, he grasped then in agony for us, and gave us the tools we needed to live in his world.

You ask that in exchange for heaven all we must do is blindly bow and follow the teachings of zealots with a book. My God asks me to be a man and act as an honorable person, not judging others for which church they belong to, but the content of a person's character.

You, a mortal men who know nothing of freedom, ask me to bow to your God. My God asks me to be free, and stand up like man.

See you at Ragnarok. Pray you are on the side of the Asa.

All this talk is great. Any discussion about religion is good. What it comes down to is this.... we do not know.

The Bible says alot of things. But it is as stated, a book of faith.

And the bottom line is faith. When the end times come will you have faith in whatever you believe?

I think that when the end times come we will be surprised at where we end up. And we will also be surprised at who we see wherever we are.

Peace.

How true. Odin never asked for us to do anything but be oroud and honourable, and prove ourselves deserving. No blindly believing, to be greedy and want salvation, simply for being rude to others who differ. I ask you, as human beings too just realise everyone is different, difference is not evil.

I HATE PAGANS BECAUSE THEY ARE SMARTER THAN i AM AND THEY CAN SPELT BETTER AND THEY HAVE MORE GODS AND MY MOMMA AND DDADDY SAID THAT THEY WERE WRONG SO THEY MUST BE. WOW THEY ARE SOO DUMB, NOT WORSHIPPING MY GOD, HOW DUMB CAN YOU GET, MAKING YOUR OWN DECISIONS WITHOUT MY SKY FAIRY TO GUIDE YOU

YOU NEED BELZEBU...I MEAN JESUS

\"Do Only That Which Is Right!\" enough said.

I read all that I did, and realized that there is no way that people will fully understand our higher being. Noticed I did not give the higher being a name, just what it is. Who are we to judge others for their connection to this higher being? All in all I feel as tough we all worship the same \"God\" but just in different ways. I myself was raised to be Christian, but my feelings towards God is different from the church. Mind you there are many churches under Christianity just as there are many covens in Paganism. What you choose is your choice. I would not stop only at these religions but study all religions, and see what they all have in common. As Darkangle, the writer of this artical stated that there seems to be a connection. The only way to find out weather this is true or not is to discover for yourself. We may have different views, but perhaps we are not so far off from each other. The best thing that i can say is that if you don\'t understand something or fear something, then go straight to the source with an open mind and learn. take away your bias thoughts and honestly, simply learn. Who are we to say that there is only one way to God, if we do not know what God is? Does any book really tell you directly what God is, or just as we imagine God to be.

The Christian church included only the gospels that they wanted to and left out the ones they did not want. Where are the gospels of Phillip, Mary, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene? In the early gospels, there was no mention of a Resurrection, that was added later. Inns did not exist at the time of Jesus birth, mangers were nothing more than a feeding box and used quite often as a cradle. Travellers stayed in homes at that time because it was the hospitality of the culture. Jesus would not have been born in a stable. Joseph was a \"Master of the Craft\" not a carpenter. The Craft had nothing to do with woodwork. Translated originally from Latin, Mary was not a virgin, but a Virgo. Virgo meant young woman. Modern Latin is the same and if she were a virgin it would have read \"virgo intacta.\" Jesus the Nazerene, not Jesus of Nazareth. Nazareth was established 30 years after the crucifixtion. Jesus was ressurected on the third day from death. This was actually a release from excommunication of the church which required a 3 day waiting period, not a miracle. Jesus was the \"messiah\" which meant \"annoited one.\" All annointed senior priests and Davidic kings were considered messiahs. Archangels meant chief ambassadors. \"The Kingdom of Heaven\" was a monastery in Mird by the Dead Sea. \"Cloud\" was a title given to priestly leader of the pilgrims. If we now read the Acts verses as they were intended to be understood, we see that Jesus was taken up by the Cloud (the Leader of the Pilgrims) to the Kingdom of Heaven (the High Monastery). And the man in white (an angelic priest) said that Jesus would return at the time of restitution (when his Earthly marriage was restored). Jesus was also referred to as \"the Christ\"-a Greek definition which meant \"the King\". In saying the name \"Jesus Christ\", we are actually saying \"King Jesus\", and his kingly heritage was of the Royal House of Judah (the House of David), as mentioned numerous times in the Gospels and in the Epistles of St Paul. Sorry to disappoint you Christians, not trying to bash you, just presenting the facts so you realize that miracles are magic, there are no streets of gold, and Jesus\' original teachings are closer to Paganism than fictional Churchianity.
Blessed Be!

I strongly beleive to be Pagan is a sin..because without God there would be no Earth and there certainly would be no life. God created all and i dont believe anyone was forced to convert. Thats simply not the christian way. People just Dont understand christians and the church of england is Catholic not christian..There 2 completely seperate religions.

I agree..and whoever said there are no streets of gold how would you know...you dont..you cant say there arent if you have never witnessed heaven. You cant just go around telling people there beliefs are wrong just because they sound alittle weird to you..there may very well be streets of gold..unless you've been to heaven and come back you really wouldnt know and dont have the right to tell anyone otherwise.

um, April... The English Church is Protestant, idiot. They broke off from the Catholic Church so Henry the VIII could divorce whomever he pleased. Also, while I do believe without the meeting of Fire and Water in Nothingness there would be not Earth, i have look at you and shake my head. We do understand Christians. You are in our faces telling us that we are evil when if go back and look at the list of atrocities committed against Man, After the Nazi's, Christians come in second. Also, if you believe me being a Pagan is a sin (which is a Christian Construct), let me quote your book:

Judge not, lets ye be judged.

Elizabeth... What? Are you huffing?

And to European Pagan, while i agree with most of your post, I have to stop you on that last part. Jesus existed, there are enough accurate historical records to confirm that. Not disagreeing with you on your post, but c'mon.

Ok i went a little bit mad on the jesus dosen't exist but here is the thing there have many Gods before jesus and the god in the old testament why should we forget our Gods that gave us so much for a god that ignores everybody and lets people do whatever the damn hell the want.I have noting against christ but his followers have detroyed europe and other countrys for centurys,the crusades killed all the pagans that they could find who did not bow down to this christ god they never heard of.I don't want to bow to christ i will bow down to to odin and the rest of the european Gods i don't want to fooled to beleve that there is just one god

I am a PROUD Pagan but i find it quite trivial how we seem to let Religion pull the world apart the way it is, we are ALL human beings, we all have families, we all have lives, yes not all of us are "good" persay but if you look at it the majority of today's hate crimes are performed by supposed "Christians." You all talk about how loving and caring GOD is yet look at your Bible:

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)


How does that not contradict itself? The Bible is full of them and no one can come up with a good arguement to back what is said. The only thing i can say is "Love Thy Neighbor" let Bigons be Bigons, dont try and run some one elses life if they are happy the way they are.
I have not closed my mind to the possibility of GOD and JESUS but i am PAGAN, we, in a sense, worship the changing of the seasons, we KNOW it happens we witness it all the time there for it exists, provide me with the exidence needed and i WILL bow down before GOD and seek his forgiveness, but until then let people live their lives let us be, we(pagans) are people too, we have lives we have families. I do NOT mean to offend, if what i have said offends you i am sorry but i must speak my mind.

~Kristopher Williams (Age 17)

Solid snake you say love thy neighbor even though your god dosen't think like you its says in deuteronomy I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust. it sounds like your god is not only a prick but a tick to and what else does it say about wemon in deuteronomy Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole [b] beside the altar you build to the LORD your God, 22 and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates.and it sounds like your god hates a compatition no wonder why satan went against god is a prick and christian are sopse to fear god 12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the LORD's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? oh yes i really afraid of a coward who refuses to show his face i can see why i hate him and his church i think it's time for pagans to back what belongs to them death to god HAIL ODIN HAIL DAGDA HAIL CU-CUCLANN HAIL TO THE GODS

European pagan kick every christianass with that comment,not to mention that the 3 main religions islam christainty and jewdism is going to destroy the world look at all the violence the muslims are doing and the christians in northen ireland the catholics and protestants are killing each over there god over who is right and wrong and if pagans still rule europe there would no violence vikings went all over europe and had great merchints they did not go to each country and force there gods on them but islam and christianty force people into relgion and worship there fake god PAGANISM BACK IN THE WORLD HAIL THE GODS HAIL ZEUS HAIL HADES HAIL TO THE OTHER GODS

Now that i have been thinking about i have been bit of a prick i think i have been harsh but i stand by my beleifs and i apolgize it just that my ancestors have bullied and torted by christians for years and felt like i was spitting there face when i went to communion in the church but serously you have to admit alot of christians are losing there faith in christianty and look at ansetor belfeif and thats what i did and then i found out how crul the church was and that sent me into a rage against christians and your right about alot things i don\'t know what son of hades was going on about there about vikings now he was right about in some that does not deny the fact they rapped people i know you a perfect world without violence i know thats what we all want but i don\'t that will ever happen look there is war going there always fighting over beleifs but even i qustion myself about some i say or do and why and you are right there should a time people should stop fighting but think thats going when actully desyroys itself and i not your about beleif but there is alot of dints in the christain beleif....... Odins blessing

Thank you European Pagan, that is all I asked was an understanding, and you gave it.

Thank you

Thank Anu a christian who respects pagans you know i always thought christians were out to get pagans but thank anu that you are a wise christian anyway this is my last Odins blessing and may the lucifer shine his light upon all people (lucifer is not satan his name in latan means light bringer andhe is the son of jupiter)and he had noting to do with satan.and yeah your going to that im satanist for saying this satan but satan was a God well two when you look at pan or cernunnos they resemple the baphomet cool eh so for satainst they are worshipping a pagan god (and a very horny one)ahahah

first thing\'s first. i am not trying to convert anyone to paganism or any other religion. the only reason i am contributing to this forum is because i wanted to point out the defensiveness on the christians\' side. honestly, there are plain facts in front of you. the arguing should stop about what your Bible says. the Bible is NOT a factual book, as was stated before, and is considered faith-based, as was stated before. i personally am not disputing any beliefs on the christian side. i respect your religion, and am ashamed at how so many of you christians are so quick to put down something you know nothing about. now, if you\'ve done research and everything, and you\'re putting down facts, then that is understandable. but stop with the closed-mindedness. honestly, do you really agree with everything that the Bible says anyway? would you stone a man in public for being gay? would you stone your offspring, or your spouse, or your parents for believing in something besides christianity? that\'s what the Bible says to do in Deuteronomy. think about it. why would God say Thou Shalt Not Kill and then turn around and say \"hey, yeah, stone that guy to death for disobeying.\" in your religion, God states man will reap what they sow. it\'s a contradiction for Him to ask you to stone someone to death for \"sinning\".

grace- you stated, \"I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats\'s how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.\" but i was wondering who has told you this? did the man himself come back from the dead and speak to you and tell you his story? or is this just another story from the Bible? as it has been said before in this forum many times, the Bible has not been documented as fact, so unless you spoke to this dead man yourself and have evidence, then your statement is also fictious. again, i am not saying your religion is fictious, but base your beliefs of why your religion is the ONLY religion off some pure, hardcore facts.

Mac- that is just disgusting to me how you can sit there and claim that your religion is truth and ours is \"made up\". are you even listening to yourself? all religion is a belief in something. there is no set religion. we all create our own beliefs, but i laugh because paganism came BEFORE christianity was ever thought of. you sit there and judge other people for something you know NOTHING about. we are not evil. we have done nothing to harm you or your religion in any way. honestly, we sit here stating FACTS and you turn blindly away, because you do not want to see what\'s so plainly written in history, what is the TRUTH (referring to paganism being older than christianity, and the Bible being a faith-based book, and not historically proven to be fact, etc). we are not saying your God is non-existent. we are not saying you are wrong. it is not only an important verse in your book to love your neighbor as thyself, but it is also in the Constitution (if you are American) to allow every person to have Freedom of Religion. do not bash our way of thinking because you do not believe in it. you feel threatened, and that is why you attack. but no one has threatened you. so take off the battle gear and respect other\'s opinions and beliefs.

April- read some of your other fellow christians\' comments. there are attempts at conversion left and right in this forum! Rick was a prime example for it, followed by grace. you all feel you need to threaten us to turn us into good little God-fearing children so we can avoid going to hell. i\'m sorry, but i know that hell does not exist, and that is my belief, and i do not push it on anyone, because i have respect for others. also, a little fact about Jesus, which has been proven: Jesus traveled through India and Tibet for 17 years, studying AND teaching buddhist and hindu holy men. look it up. point is, Jesus studied buddhism and hinduism and then went on to teach it to others. NOT christianity. Jesus had an open mind to other religions. why can\'t christians? why can\'t you?

Kel- i\'m not going to try to convert you or convince you that becoming pagan is the only way, because it\'s not. buddhism is a beautiful religion. there\'s wiccan, a newer form of paganism, with slightly different beliefs that deal more with nature, but stems from paganism. and of course, you are already christian. but why do you need a label? why can\'t you be a little bit of everything mixed together? i am spiritual. i believe in what i believe in, but if you present me with fact, hey, i can\'t argue with that. but i\'m not going to change my beliefs just because you present me with facts on another religion, just like i wouldn\'t ask anyone else to do that. for me, being spiritual, leaning more towards wiccan than pagan, i find i am a very positive person and am strong in who i am because i\'m strong in what i believe. i worship everywhere, as well. i don\'t have to go to a certain place to speak with the Goddess or God. as one of my bumper stickers say: \"if going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to the garage make you a car?\" no! don\'t be afraid of searching and finding what\'s right for you. honestly, like Solid Snake stated, whether it be Goddess, God, Allah, Buddah, etc, it is simply a Higher Power who loves you and is not going to strike you down with a lightning bolt for not falling into one set belief. do what\'s right for you.


in the end, this is a trivial fight, because no one is ever going to agree, no matter how hard the evidence is, because for christians, the beliefs and laws and commandments and all that has been drilled into them since birth. i know, because my family is christian. i broke free from that because i KNEW that was not for me. just like a lot of christians feel other religions are not for them. and that\'s OKAY. we need to all realize we\'re not going to change each other, so we should stop trying. just look at the facts, keep open minds, and respect each other.

now, i\'ve stayed up way too long contemplating this and dishing out my opinion on this issue, so i will end it here. please, do not take what i said personally, or feel that i was bashing your religion in any way. honestly, as i\'ve stated a million times in here, RESPECT EACH OTHER. but also, please, respect the facts. it does not mean you are wrong, it does not mean you are right. it is just fact. i wish you all peace and Blessed Be.


oh, and by the way, great article!

first thing\'s first. i am not trying to convert anyone to paganism or any other religion. the only reason i am contributing to this forum is because i wanted to point out the defensiveness on the christians\' side. honestly, there are plain facts in front of you. the arguing should stop about what your Bible says. the Bible is NOT a factual book, as was stated before, and is considered faith-based, as was stated before. i personally am not disputing any beliefs on the christian side. i respect your religion, and am ashamed at how so many of you christians are so quick to put down something you know nothing about. now, if you\'ve done research and everything, and you\'re putting down facts, then that is understandable. but stop with the closed-mindedness. honestly, do you really agree with everything that the Bible says anyway? would you stone a man in public for being gay? would you stone your offspring, or your spouse, or your parents for believing in something besides christianity? that\'s what the Bible says to do in Deuteronomy. think about it. why would God say Thou Shalt Not Kill and then turn around and say \"hey, yeah, stone that guy to death for disobeying.\" in your religion, God states man will reap what they sow. it\'s a contradiction for Him to ask you to stone someone to death for \"sinning\".

grace- you stated, \"I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats\'s how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.\" but i was wondering who has told you this? did the man himself come back from the dead and speak to you and tell you his story? or is this just another story from the Bible? as it has been said before in this forum many times, the Bible has not been documented as fact, so unless you spoke to this dead man yourself and have evidence, then your statement is also fictious. again, i am not saying your religion is fictious, but base your beliefs of why your religion is the ONLY religion off some pure, hardcore facts.

Mac- that is just disgusting to me how you can sit there and claim that your religion is truth and ours is \"made up\". are you even listening to yourself? all religion is a belief in something. there is no set religion. we all create our own beliefs, but i laugh because paganism came BEFORE christianity was ever thought of. you sit there and judge other people for something you know NOTHING about. we are not evil. we have done nothing to harm you or your religion in any way. honestly, we sit here stating FACTS and you turn blindly away, because you do not want to see what\'s so plainly written in history, what is the TRUTH (referring to paganism being older than christianity, and the Bible being a faith-based book, and not historically proven to be fact, etc). we are not saying your God is non-existent. we are not saying you are wrong. it is not only an important verse in your book to love your neighbor as thyself, but it is also in the Constitution (if you are American) to allow every person to have Freedom of Religion. do not bash our way of thinking because you do not believe in it. you feel threatened, and that is why you attack. but no one has threatened you. so take off the battle gear and respect other\'s opinions and beliefs.

April- read some of your other fellow christians\' comments. there are attempts at conversion left and right in this forum! Rick was a prime example for it, followed by grace. you all feel you need to threaten us to turn us into good little God-fearing children so we can avoid going to hell. i\'m sorry, but i know that hell does not exist, and that is my belief, and i do not push it on anyone, because i have respect for others. also, a little fact about Jesus, which has been proven: Jesus traveled through India and Tibet for 17 years, studying AND teaching buddhist and hindu holy men. look it up. point is, Jesus studied buddhism and hinduism and then went on to teach it to others. NOT christianity. Jesus had an open mind to other religions. why can\'t christians? why can\'t you?

Kel- i\'m not going to try to convert you or convince you that becoming pagan is the only way, because it\'s not. buddhism is a beautiful religion. there\'s wiccan, a newer form of paganism, with slightly different beliefs that deal more with nature, but stems from paganism. and of course, you are already christian. but why do you need a label? why can\'t you be a little bit of everything mixed together? i am spiritual. i believe in what i believe in, but if you present me with fact, hey, i can\'t argue with that. but i\'m not going to change my beliefs just because you present me with facts on another religion, just like i wouldn\'t ask anyone else to do that. for me, being spiritual, leaning more towards wiccan than pagan, i find i am a very positive person and am strong in who i am because i\'m strong in what i believe. i worship everywhere, as well. i don\'t have to go to a certain place to speak with the Goddess or God. as one of my bumper stickers say: \"if going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to the garage make you a car?\" no! don\'t be afraid of searching and finding what\'s right for you. honestly, like Solid Snake stated, whether it be Goddess, God, Allah, Buddah, etc, it is simply a Higher Power who loves you and is not going to strike you down with a lightning bolt for not falling into one set belief. do what\'s right for you.


in the end, this is a trivial fight, because no one is ever going to agree, no matter how hard the evidence is, because for christians, the beliefs and laws and commandments and all that has been drilled into them since birth. i know, because my family is christian. i broke free from that because i KNEW that was not for me. just like a lot of christians feel other religions are not for them. and that\'s OKAY. we need to all realize we\'re not going to change each other, so we should stop trying. just look at the facts, keep open minds, and respect each other.

now, i\'ve stayed up way too long contemplating this and dishing out my opinion on this issue, so i will end it here. please, do not take what i said personally, or feel that i was bashing your religion in any way. honestly, as i\'ve stated a million times in here, RESPECT EACH OTHER. but also, please, respect the facts. it does not mean you are wrong, it does not mean you are right. it is just fact. i wish you all peace and Blessed Be.


oh, and by the way, great article!

I agree with you Annabelle. Great response. If only more people thought alike then there would be less hate in our world.

God Bless

Snake Out...

Wow... where to begin? First of all, I would like to say that I don't want to offend anyone, Not even "dild0headed Christian" *chuckle*. However it seems like some folks on both sides of the issue here are busy trying to call what they believe the "truth" (not everyone though, and for that I'm glad). While there are facts that can be backed up, I feel that as a Christian, I really don't have the right to make any such claims myself, but I have to ask my fellow Christians why they feel as if they hold some monopoly on right and wrong? I believe that Jesus died for our sins, but I wasn't there, so really, how could I ever say I "know" he did? I for one would not feel right saying to a Wiccan or a Muslim "what you think is wrong because I believe it is". All I'm saying is maybe we should just take a deep breath and try to be a little more civil towards those who see things differently than us. Oh, and while I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, Kel, maybe I'm wrong, but I think when Solomon wrote "test all and hold true that which is good" he meant even our own beliefs... at least it seems (in my rather fallible point of view) like that's the way it was meant.

i do believe that there is a higher power , rather it be of many or of just one , i don\'t know . all i know is that i am human , nothing more and nothing less. i was raised a catholic and there are alot and i do mean alot that i do not agree with i have studied christian religion and like many of you have stated it is a man made book they follow . i believe in treating and judging others by whom they are . live just live . if you have to force a person to believe in what you feel is right then their life is a lie . everyone has free will let them . i am neither pagan or christian although i do believe more in the pagan beliefs that doesn\'t mean i would ever condem a person for being christian nor do i believe i should be for what i believe . blessed be

All of the Christians who have entered on this page share the same defects as most christians : Arrogance and closed mindedness, also most of your information sounds unresearched and biased. I feel that no on has the right to comment or argue about something unless they are educated. The truth is Christians did steal traditions from other beliefs systems in order for it to be easier to convert them. As stated above Christianity is a young religion in the scope of the worlds history. Our ways of the old gods have been reduced to not much more than what are considered fairy tales by most people. People of old died for these beliefs because their faith was so strong. If you look into the Eddas (norse texts) You will find that Odin was tied to the tree Yggrisil with a spear wound in his side as a self sacrifice. Not much unlike Christ. You must also remember that for every book about Jesus in the bible there are another ten that were not deemed \"holy\" enough to be in the bible. In most of those books it is said that Jesus was a good man, but just that a man.

Many are missing a key insight here. Jesus never lived, he was a created being by the gnostic christian sect. He is another in a long line of sun gods. That is why all the connections with pagan beliefs to make it more pallatable for new converts. The \"Christian Religion\" was created by Constantine and other romans for political purposes. Many Christians at the time did not believe Jesus was god, and some that he ever lived. He was a mythical being. That is exactly what Paul thought. Paul never talks about mary, joseph, a stable, or almost any of the christmas story stuff. Or Herod etc. All of Paul\'s writting came BEFORE Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. That\'s another trick (the whole thing really is) but they put those books first as if they were writting a book and that was the preface or the setting of the story. When in fact Paul probably had never saw or heard of these books. The book of John was written between 70 CE - 120 CE. Even Christian theologians of all stripes now accept this, although they will say 70 CE. Pauls books are around 50CE. Most Christians think they know what the bible says, but through the eyes of their pastor. Advise, throw away your translation bibles and the one\'s that are actual translations. Paul said in Hebrews 8:4 for if he were on earth he would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law. please explain..... Another good one if Jesus was god because he had no father(bogus), then tell me who Melchizdek is. in hebrews 7 1-3 it says that this man, the high priest of Salam, had no beginning and no end, no mother and no father. that abraham gave tithes to him, he was like the son of god ethernal. explain.....

Mac- i can\'t believe you think that way! how do you know those gods aren\'t real for petes sake! how the hell could paganism be just made up? it was around centuries b-4 christianity and if you don\'t believe me than look in any multicultural NON ONE-SIDED history book and you\'ll see all the religions before it! i\'m not against it but i never fit in to it. paganism is not evil and it does not contradict itself. as for all ur examples, they\'re just a pile of lies made to make paganism LOOK EVIL! just because we\'re pagan doesn\'t mean we\'re against christianity. it doesn\'t maen we\'re unpleasant ppl. doesn\'t mean WE\'RE SINNERS
April- god u need to see the world u nvr heard of the things christian churches did 2 ppl just cause they wrnt christian? \"the chirstian way\" everything was covered up when the churches lectured every1 who came to be christian and then FORGOT WHAT JESUS SAID!
Rick-ok you know NOTHING about paganism!

did you know the image of isis osiris and horus was borrowed and made into the image of the holy family (Mary, Joseph, Jesus) not that i disrespect jesus, i just don't think of him as my savior

i am pagan and i'm PROUD OF IT!

Aright every one take a deep breath and hear me. We MUST love each other. We are dragging our faiths through the mud. The Goddess is about love and so is Jesus, see one thing we have in common with each other. Arguing wont do us any good, we must unite and be strong and set examples of love to our children, or do we want to be remembered as hate mongers?

i agree with envy green. sorry ppl

I take it "who said that" is atheist?
I agree with Envy Green. Love is one thing we all know in some way, shape, or form. Even serial killers love something (i.e. killing people perhaps). Whether or not they love "someone" is a different question. I think we can all agree that love is real, though. And we all worship It/Him, because we all seek what we love. It's really not complicated.

Mellowmaniac, I think you have said the most valuable comment on this comment board, that all you need is love. well said!

The alleged \'Holy Bible\' and Christianity? \"The Greatest Fraud Ever Sold\" However, as crutches for those who were born into either or both, either and/or both serve a purpose. Religion is an emotional activity NOT a rational activity. Most people believe in God because they\'ve been taught to believe in God. Never during my formative years in Catholicism did any nun or preist ever say to me: \"Billy, what do you think of the virgin birth, the resurrection or any of the \'truths\' pumped into my
blank-tape mind: they just kept filling it up with unproveable
nonsense. It\'s take my 80+ years to deprogramm myself.

I just wanted to say that reading this makes me extremly ashamed of being on the same plane of existence as i dont know.. MAC and Raquel.. Rick. I have never been so disgusted by stupidity in my life, i can speak for almost everyone but you that all we want is peace, love, and tollerance. why is that so much to ask? are we slaves that are untitled to our own opinions! first of all Raquel before you start ranting about how \"CHRISTIANS WERE FIRTST AND >>> YEA WE ARE LIKE RIGHT AND STUFF\" freaking read, it wasn\'t first... at all. its actually really new compared to every other relegion out there, and you put christians to shame because i know for sure they are aware of that fact. MAC could you be less smart please! its hurting my head so bad when i read all your great facts about how pagans are wrong and evil and were right... and they are evil.. cuz they are... and we are right.. and they are evil and wrong.. and... NO! when we say things are good but bad its a balance A NATURAL AND BEAUTIFUl BALANCE OF NATURE. you live in nature, shouldnt you at least respect it. and you dont even know what we believe in, not all of us believe in many gods, some do, some believe in jesus, it varies. and FINALLY THEY WERE PAGAN HOLIDAYS. jesus was not born december 25, or as some stupid person but the 30th.. what??? the 30th hahaha. they MADE THAT UP to distract from our pagan traditions and make it easier to convert to christianity. people say jesus was born in MARCH. and all the holidays you celebrate have roots from our rituals, and you really shouldnt celebrate samhain or HALLOWEEN if your going to put down our beliefs so much... thats a little hypocritical dont you think? thats a new year for us, but because of people like you who make it so much harder to understand what we really believe in, people have no idea. ON A FINAL NOTE, why have you been defending so.. quickly and downing us if you don\'t have doubts yourself... all i see coming from pagan tolerance.. is pagan tolerance.. not saying all christians will suffer muahahah. we like to be a little open-minded. i hope you find peace within yourself and the ability to accept and love.
blessed be

Well Envy Green, seems we agree, now if only we can get some discussion on the original topic without hatefests erupting...

I agree,Quiet Christian, lets get back on discussion on the original topic. I think that the writer spent the time to get the facts straight and I think thats a nice change of pace compared to the garbage floating
on the net.

GO GI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everyone google Oomoto. it's a Japanese religion/organization devoted to art and humanity. it's main goals are to strengthen all things good and create religious and racial unity (world unity) it's founder Nao deguchi pradicted the atom bomb and many other events. she received holy transmissions from the being who is said to be the protecter of the world. they support all around peace :)

I don't agree that these practices are evil but the writer raises a good point about the celebrations we take for granted. When I first announced that I was converting into a branch of Pagan faith, my friend said 'But you'll still be celebrating Easter right?' If only I knew better... ^_^

Although I respect the Christian views on Paganism, I don't that everything remotely associated with pagans should be declared evil. Yes - magic and ritual - but wreaths, holly and mistletoe? They are just reflections of winter and if people want to replace nativity and angels with pinecones and snow, perhaps they might want re think where their faith is and what they really want to celebrate.

Ok... Where is the proof? Where is the proof that really declares there is only ONE god? Eh? Don\\\'t quote bible verses either, I have read the bible, I know what it says, but where is the proof? I have nothing againts Christians being an ex one myself, but none of it made since, for once god delcares in one of the 10 commadments and I quote \\\"And there shall be no other Gods BEFORE me.\\\" right there is proof that other gods do exsist! Everything in the bible, holidays specificly, are all take from the Pagan Religion, the first religion, not after Christaity. BEFORE. So when you can proof to me, like acctually PROVE to me there is only one, then consider me a saint, untill then, go rot in your nonexsitsing hell =) Blessed Be! \\\"An\\\' ye harm none\\\"

The Article here mentions many similarities between ancient pagan traditions and Christianity, and argues that Christianity has borrowed, inherited, or brazenly stole these traditions (depending on how the different pagan commentators choose to interpret the article and explain these similarities) while claiming them as original to Christianity.
Certainly it is the case that history and archaeological evidence demonstrates that there were religions prior to Christianity. Judaism, of course is one that was prior to Christianity and one which Christianity descended from.
The first recorded monotheistic religion was actually Egyptian and it is believed that it was this monotheism that was adopted by the Jewish tribes.
While the Bible indicates that monotheism was around before Abraham, it is Abraham who becomes the patriarch of Judaism and later, Christianity, and it was Abraham who went into Egypt because of a famine in the land. Moses was raised as an Egyptian and had privileged access to Egyptian religious secrets. Thus it becomes possible to speculate that the monotheism of the Jews was adopted from the Egyptian Monotheism that Archaeology has dated to a time when the Jewish tribes interacted with Egyptian culture, although they were despised by the Egyptians for their lifestyle.
Now, many Christians claim that those religions that existed prior to Christ, and which bear similarity with Christianity are only the remnants of the true religion after being corrupted. That is, those pagan elements that are believed to have been adopted by Christianity are what remained of the true religion after the flood, the destruction of the tower of Babel and the scattering of peoples and the confusion of tongues, and that these pagan religions are merely a corrupt form of the true religion that preceded them. Proof, of course, is lacking only to the extent that archaeology has not yet uncovered it. The archaeological evidence for the monotheism that existed in Egypt was only found after it was discovered that it had been covered up, monuments and statues defaced, and records changed.
With regard to the god of the old testament who seems extremely bloodthirsty, we should also keep in mind that the pagans of the time were also bloodthirsty.
For the Odonite who commented here, it should be remebered that Odin was originally a war god and it is only warriors killed in battle who get into Valhalla. What happens to the more peaceful members?
All of the atrocities leveled at Christianity can also be leveled at many pagan religions. Early Christians were fed to lions, made to fight and die in the Roman colliseum for the entertainment of spectators, persecuted and executed for their religious beliefs.
While many of the claims that Christians make about the truths of their theology can not be proven by facts, nor can the spiritual or transcendental truths of any other religion, Christianity is a historical fact as a religion that has existed since the time of Christ (whether he existed or not) and is evidenced by the historical records of their persecution even if you don\'t accept their own account. It is also also of historical record that Judaism existed whether you accept their account or not. While there is no archaeological evidence of them prior to them being obscurely mentioned in an Egyptian record, to simply claim that they did not exist because there is nor evidence is like saying that the American Indian Lakota tribe did not exist until they showed up on the American plains, and were encountered by white explorers. After all, the archaeological evidence only indicates changes in technology and the migration of that technology. But, just because technology migrates doesn\'t mean the people who created it did so as well.
How evidence is interpreted is not always the correct interpretation.
As to the current standing of religious beliefs today, it is important to keep in mind that modern paganism is not idential to ancient paganism, rather, modern paganism is often an interpretation of ancient paganism just as Christianity interprets ancient Judaism as Christianity, or will claim that Abraham was a Chrstian, while disallowing modern Judaism as Christian. Mostly because modern Judaism does not accept Christ even though they still believe in the coming of the Messiah. Personally, I find it difficult to see the distinction between ancient and modern Judaism based on that criteria since the Jews prior to Christ believed in the coming of the Messiah and had not accepted Christ since he had not come yet either.
In any case, these arguments for historical validity become pointless when it is accepted that all religions are matters of faith and not fact. Can an Odonite, or a Wiccan prove that their Gods factually exist? If facts are all that count, then we all should be atheists.

P.S.
As an afterthought, I think it important to point out that the one explanation I gave for the similarities between Christianity and various pagan religions is not the only possible explanation from a Christian perspective. It has also been argued, by Justin Martyr, that these similarities where the pagan belief precedes the coming of Christ, that these pagan beliefs are the counterfeit work of the devil who knowing the prophecies of the Bible has attempted to imitate them and lead people into errors and false beliefs.

in the end, we are all human. we are all the same, we all have the same blood, the same bones, we are equals. whether our ancestors were bloodthirsty or peaceful, that is not the point. religion will never be perfect, because we are human, and as humans, we are NOT perfect and we make mistakes. the point is, as envy green has stated, that both the Goddess and Jesus alike are loving, and that is the message that should be spread in the end. we should not be concerning ourselves as to who is right or who is wrong, because we will never come up with an answer. it is a useless, trivial argument as i stated before, and we will never come to a conclusion. the only conclusion that i do agree upon, though, is that we need to love each other, no matter what we believe in, who we are, what we do, what we look like, no matter what. love is universal, and needs to be the key point here because it is what brings people together. in the end, even history is flawed and tampered with. it will be an endless argument if we continue with "who is right, who is wrong." it does not matter, as long as everyone has their own faiths, their own beliefs, and we respect each other, and love one another no matter what we believe in, because in the end we are all the same. we are human. and we are loved by Whomever we believe in. that is all that matters.

as to what the writer has put, this was a very good article, and in the end, i believe it shows how SIMILAR both Christians and Pagans are. and that it is not a bad thing to be alike, and take things from each other, use things from each other, because that's how humans learn, isn't it? we learn from each other. no religion is right or wrong. in the end, we all come from the same thing. a Higher Power who made us with love and wants us to love one another just as deeply as They love us.

Hmm... Annabelle, if we realized how similar we all are then we wouldn't have as much to yell about, no wait... that's a good thing huh? :) Ghostrider, I find myself really liking your post, you seem to have put a lot of thought into this, it seems to me that early Christians were a little more open minded (if even only a VERY little) towards the beliefs around them and actively looked for the ones they could assimilate into their own point of view (though I prefer the word "adopted" rather than stole), a good example of this would, ironically, be Hell. Of the three words translated into Hell, one was "Hades". This was a Greek idea, no? Even the word "Hell" itself... well, didn't the Norse believe in a place (and a goddess) named Hel? I don't think adding an extra letter made the idea ours, but what if it's just a case of using other religion\'s terms to describe what was already a part of Judeo-Christianity? Maybe even helped in describing what folks believed... and of course who can say what Judeo-Christianity itself may have grown out of (though I dare say some of my fellow Christians would be willing to call that blasphemy, I follow the "test all" rule on this one).

Judeo-Christianity, by some, is believed to have been born out of Egyptian traditions. The ten commandments are a derivative of the Book of the Dead, specifically the Declaration of Innocence wherein they say:
\"...I have done no falsehood\"
\"...I have not robbed\"
\"...I have not killed men\"
and so on. To read them for yourself you may go to:
http://www.touregypt.net/bod3.htm
As this is the basis of the Torah, which in it contains the laws of the Jews and is subsequently the basis for all Christianity, some might think this is sufficient. I was convinced on less, however, many have problems making the connection between these two ancient religions, so i will give another example. Horus is the Egyptian God of the Sun. He preceded the man Jesus by a few thousand years. Horus was born of a virgin and the announcement of this birth was brought by an angel, his birth is celebrated on the 21-25 of December and was hailed by the dog star Sirius in the east. Shepherds witnessed his birth and he was later visited by three solar deities. During his stay at the cave in which he was born, the king over the area Herut, tried to have him killed. An angel came to his mother and warned her to flee. When he became twelve, he went to a temple and after there was little information on him until he was thirty. At that time he was baptized in the river Eridanus by Anup the Baptizer who was later beheaded. He was later taken up a mountain and tempted by Set but ultimately resisted the temptation. He amassed 12 disciples and continued to preform miracles such as walking on water, healing the sick, casting out demons and making the blind see. He even raised his dead father. He was crucified next to two thieves and buried in a tomb, from whence he descended into the underworld and rose again in three days. The first to announce his resurrection where women and he was said to rule for the next thousand years. He was known as the Lamb of God, the good shepherd, the bread of life and the Word. He was KRST, the anointed one, the messiah and savior of all mankind.
Of course there are a couple of things being contested, such as the virgin birth and 12 disciples (some believe he had 4 celestial disciples and 16 human), nevertheless the parallels between these two are numerous. You can see other similarities at: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
Anyway, I hope this helps with the thread.

Blessed Be

What you believe is all a bunch of intellectual stimulation designed to bolster you emotional ego

unless

You can consistently, and reliably produce spiritual manifestation on command. Then it is a matter of what possible use such manifestation would have.

Example:
I have never seen any witches leviate over the flood waters to rescue stranded people from the roofs of thier houses.

If a religious system at least tries to make the world a better place, it speaks loudly for it. If a religious system is secretive and subversive that also speaks loudly for it (for those that pay attention). Occult practitioners are typically more interested in their own agradizement. When was the last time you heard of the Wiccan non-profit organization for helping unwed mothers, or the Wiccan hunger relief organization.

These are just indications. The real test for any religious system is SHOW ME SOMETHING! If there is no solid, consistent, repeatable, beneficial and obviously spiritual manifestation then you are a FAKE and your system is for emotional stroking.

Well it seems the Christians have fallen out of the argument. Well except for QuietChristian whom i have to say is one of the most rational ones I\'ve seen in a while. Thank you so much for not banishing us to the gates of hell for not quite sharing your beliefs :) We can all use a little less negativity being directed towards us. I do no even try to have these debates with Christians anymore. I have found that regardless of how illogical it obviously is, they will not see it. If they did then their lives have been lived in deprivation, suppression and fear this whole time, and it would have all been for nothing. And that would also alter their perspective on lost loved ones whom they were so sure would be at the pearly gates by now, walking hand in hand with God himself.
It feels like I\'m arguing with a child, whenever I try to hold an intelligent debate with them. \"Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!\" Lol.
Thanks so much for the great article. And thanks to my fellow pagans for not stooping to their level of ignorant arguing. Blessed Be!

When people think that they have some "divine" right to persecute,starve,torture people to "covert" people is plain wrong. I view that practice as the most barbaric, inhumane, disrespectful means of conversion. I think if Christians were at least abit serious about what they do they would accept the faith arund them as possible paths for people and merely lead lives to their faith. I a person like it and feels it is right then yay for them, butwhen you come into someones face telling them they will burn in hell and how wrong their beliefs are, well you wont get very far. sry for typos sticky keys

Hey Jeff, We don\\\'t have to be an organization to give back to our communities. Also you are probably the type of person who gives back to make them feel good about yourself. So how does it feel that you are stroking your own ego? How about you give back for the sake of giving back and not for the reason that it is behind your organized religion where you probably feel obligated to anyways. Organized religion is just a way for you to pay for your sins on sunday. You probably are a weekend warrior anyways. Good on sunday, then monday rolls around and you become ignorant and judgemental.

Also I have given money to help support your organizations for these types of topics. So try bringing something else up that we don\\\'t do. We give back. More than you know, we don\\\'t have to stand behind our religion to do so.

I spent alot of time reading these posts. Gotta say that all religion, all faith is made by man ( meaning human, don't get all pissed off ladies) and was a way for some ruler to control the masses.
It seems to me that "religion" is more of a guide for people to try live there lives, in a good way. All the rules from different religions are basically the same. Be a good person, a set of moral rules to follow.
Stop your petty arguments (yeah yeah I know " We can say anything we want, it's a free country" yada yada yada)

Im Christian... and a homosexual! And I approve of this message.
All hail Jesus Christ or suffer the consenquences. Amen.
Christianity Rules!! Woot Woot!!!!

It ridiculous to argue over a person’s individual belief ...yes a belief not the correct path you must take in life it’s their choice. I personally think this is an interesting article and there is not right and wrong religion just a path you wish to take during your human form. If you believe in a certain religion great enjoy your spirituality and the company of others who agree but keep an open mind for the others that have a religion. there is no definite proof that every religion is wrong other than the one you have chosen that’s your personal preference don’t ridicule everyone else we are all human with our own minds belief in yourself don’t try and sway people just get on with it, you put yourselves to shame by doing so and it isn’t fair.

WTF, i\'d have to say that i agree with you. \"religion\" to me is a bad word. lol. yeah, i\'m an ecclectic wiccan, and i guess to some, that\'d be my religion, but i\'d have to say i disagree. it\'s not my religion. i\'m not in an organized group of ecclectic wiccans. lol. i believe in many things, and i like to listen to people and their opinions to see if i can learn something (if they\'re not bashing me for my beliefs, and are actually just communicating to me why they believe in a certain thing). i have debates with my boyfriend all the time who considers himself a catholic buddhist. we never fight or get angry, we just have intellectual debates on why we believe in something, and if we felt the other had valid points, or whatnot, we do our own research and see if it\'s a belief we\'d like to adopt for ourselves.

i believe that people need to find out for themselves what is true and what\'s not so they can set their own morals and not be \"ruled\". in america, we have the freedom to choose what we believe in, and that\'s that. (if you don\'t live in america, then that\'s different, i guess. not sure, because i\'ve never lived in another country.)

i\'m not going to come up to you on the street and preach to you about why you should be wiccan or pagan or whatever because i see you wearing something that shows me you don\'t believe in what i do. i\'m going to respect you and your beliefs. if someone asks me what i believe in, i\'ll tell them. if they ask why i believe in what i do or what it is, i\'ll tell them. but i\'m not the type of person to shove my thoughts in your face and i tend to not respect the ones who are those types of people.

thanks to all the people who have put your opinions in, regardless of what you believed. this has made a great debate.

blessed be, everyone, and happy pagan new year to my fellow pagans/wiccans.

Okay, so I would like to say beforehand that I have not read all of the comments posted...that would take hours, but I have read some and I feel as if I must say something.

I was raised a christian, and then about two years ago I decided to learn more about paganism and I practiced Wicca for 8 months before my mom scared me so much with promises of hell that I stopped. Now I have no idea which path of faith I would like to follow, but that\'s beside the point.

I would like to call this to attention though. It doesn\'t matter who is right and wrong in their specific path of faith. Whether there is one God or many, there\'s is one thing we can all agree on. Almost every religion teaches the same essential message; when you love, love with everything you have. When you are confronted with hardships, turn within yourself and find whatever source you can to make it through without harming others. Lead a good and fulfilling life. Pleasure is not the only way or even the best way to live a happy and full life. Living life without a chest is no way to live.

i've changed my name to sveta.
1 like what annabelle, quiet christian, ghostrider, and envy green had said (while i was on a mmass ranting spree), no religion is particularily evil or deserves to be called evil.
2 while there are crazy christians who run around saying "You will all burn in hell!" (which doesn't particularily help anyone), there are crazy ppl from other religions too. like people who will kill aethists or christians just 'cause of their religion because that happened to their ancestors. BOTTOM LINE, no one should be penalized or yelled at just 'cause of stupid rants, missconceptions, or something their ancestors did.

i bumpd into this site by researching the ankh i wana have tatooed on me, and what a site it is. First off, the article hits how i feel right on the head, thats why its so hard for me to join a church. I KNOW that there is one God and His begotten Son is my path to Him but theyre so many similarities to a lot of religions. A lot of it is symbolic. Basically, I BELIEVE you get one life \"Do What Cha Like\"

interesting this

I am at a fork in the road and the pagan ways are making more and more sense to me. The main rule as I understand it is \"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will\", ask yourself how bad can they be?

One last question before I turn away from “Christianity” - If you are so certain and confident that you “religion” is the one and only why are you so insecure and threatened?

*smiling* Thank you Sveta. I agree, unfortunately though, some people in each religion tends to focus on the worst examples of others... and rarely look at themselves. I for one, think we could do better if we each took the time for self examination. But what do I know?

I am here for my first time, We have differances I grant you. I am no longer part of organized christianity. I am a Pagan, its been a wonderful experience. On #25, the one called dildoheaded christian stated that he hates pagans. You can do what you want I grant you, however this is a very foolish thing to do is hate the ones called pagan. You know dildoheadedchristian according to the scriptures of judeo-christian religion, you are to love your brother, love your neighbor, you are to love everyone. If you have no love for people, you do not love God. Jesus Christ came as the honorable example of love as your example to follow, now I will do without the drama from you, dont get an attitude with me, remember you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. What I have just stated is truth, read your bible and you will see what I mean. You dildoheaded christian and all you other mean spirited christian people have exhibited a truly
pompous attitude look at us we have the truth, and look at all those pagans, we are much better than they, why do I say this, you at least many of you have to work on your ego. I do hate to say it but you are the kind of christians which drove me out of church. You all need to quit acting like a bunch of pharisees, and be a loving example of Jesus Christ. You dildoheadedchristian
insults the intelligence of pagans, and you cant convert anyone as well. Nice try it just will not work. Also I find that all should believe as you do, quite frankly I would not want to believe as you do. This is my path and I am at peace with it

Interesting view on many issues, but there are a few problems. To claim that all churches view pagan beliefs as "evil" is a biased generalization. Many religions, as well as the Christian ones, do not believe that paganism is the right religion. I am well aware of the history of the Christian Church adopting pagan customs, but the modern church, at least my catholic church, does not stress the evils of paganism.
Also, your history on Halloween is incorrect. Once again, I understand the point you are aiming for, but to generalize the origin of Halloween as evil is false. While Halloween does have origins in pagan traditions, it is not based off of evil traditions.
I do respect your beliefs and am fascinated with the parallel lines, but I do believe that in order to help decrease bias and ignorance, we must free ourselves of ignorance as well.

Okay I have read enough to actually want to comment on a few things. I have always respected the beliefs of others and like someone said I wouldn't feel comfortable telling someone who believed something different than me that they were wrong. I do believe in one God "Yahweh" and I believe in Christ and the holy scriptures. I guess that would be cristian however I do not follow organized religion such as lutheran, jehovahs witness, catholic ect. because I believe organized faiths tend to lead people astray when the answers lie the last place people tend not to look, within themselves. I do have complete blind faith only because I have been far too blessed not to. In my times of tribulation, despair and distress my prayers have ALWAYS been answered and the ones that were not I later thanked the Lord above that they weren't. Everything happens for a reason. I HAVE reasearched some different pagan beliefs and have read that there were alot of simularities between a few of them and Christianity and that some of them supposedly came hundreds of years before Christ was born. Her 's my belief on that. Satan is a trickster and his greatest trick ever was convincing man-kind that he does not exist. It makes sence if you ever read the scriptures you would know that salvation was through Christ what better way to try and trick man by making him doubt Christ as our savior. Does the bible not speak of false prophets and anti-Christs? Another thing to think about is astrology. Do people not try to foresee future events through astrology? Was Mithras (a religion supposedly simular to Christianity) not derived from the influence of the stars? Did this religion originate from Persia? were the magi that travelled to worship Jesus not from Persia? Could they have possibly believed they were visiting Mithras re-incarnated? Were most pagan religions or practices derived from astrology? Is astrology viewed by the bible as the works of Satan? To sum it up this goes to all the fellow cristians we should not hate others for their beliefs Jesus never hated anyone not even the ones who persecuted him. Infact he prayed for them. Jesus said we would be hated by many. So let them hate us and/or tell us we're wrong. It doesn't mean we have to hate or get angry and lose our cool. Also to whoever mentioned that he hates what the christians have done to his ancestors. I have never heard of christians doing that although I don't deny it I'm just being real here but I recall jews and christians being tortured and put to death because they would not worship pagan Gods. So you see it goes either way, religious beliefs don't bring forth bad people we all must realize that there are just bad people and good people in this world no matter what they believe in. To all the ones, athiest, Cristian, pagan what have you that came into this convo wholesome heartedly you have proved that we don't have to critcize or hate eachother just because we are different. I'm out Peace.

Well said Faith, I am happy to hear about a fellow Christian who respects the views of others. However, I disagree about "knowing" that salvation comes through Christ, don't get me wrong, as a Christian I believe wholeheartedly it does, but to "know" it, I feel is a different thing entirely. But as always that's just my point of view, and I can be wrong. Indeed, I for one don't believe the Bible is God's direct and inerrant word (yeah, I may catch some flak for that one) but what I believe may well be wrong, and I accept that. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, we all have beliefs, we come to these beliefs ourselves, and we are just human beings after all. I mean no disrespect to you Faith, just saying I see things differently.

I am an educated christian and those of you who are all over this being closed minded to the fact that god the father is a jealous god knowing that to be jealous there must first be something to be jealous of the word doesnt say he is the only god but that he is the only god we worship. the word also forbids us from forcing our beliefs on others and being judgemental. you dont even know your own religion and thats why the athiests and agnostics have grown in numbers because our religion has become closed minded. and paganism/judaism is the oldest way of life. god said he created adam and eve FIRST but tell me then the had two children cain who murdered able was exiled and then later stoned so who created these people and this city of folks who stoned this man??? i will ignore any stereotypical reply only an educational debate will be aknoledged by me as i have credentials and i am very articulate in both the bible and the qoran along with paganism but i am a christian saved through the blood of christ who wishes for a drastic reform in this religion as there are more extremist christians causing problem then there are radical islamic muslims in iraq the country which i just returned from for the second time and aquired the latter part of my knowledge...

Here is what I know. Emperor Constantine was the one who decided on Dec 25th for Christmas in 336 A.D. after he had declared Christianity the favored religion of Rome. Before that date was chosen People celebrated on Jan 6th along with the epiphany. The reason for Dec 25th being chosen was because the Emperor wanted a day that would counter the pagans day to celebrate the birth of the sun(which they thought was God)
Christianitly is not a new religion. It's been around since the beginning of time. It has just changed names beginning with Judaism. Same God, same stories, same everything. The name may change again one day, but as long as the beliefs stay the same then who cares what it is called?
The main thing that everyone one needs to look at is that Bible is what stuck, it was Judaism(aka Christianity) that stuck.

You know...I am a Christian. No one else has to be. It is sad though, because a lot of the pagan comments here are very harsh, as are a lot of the Christians. We should not judge one another for beliefs. That is what is wrong with the world now. Everyone trying to change everyone else. It's not right. One day each and everyone of you will die, and then you will know the truth. But until then, we are all just going on faith. You all can believe whatever you want to believe, but don't put me or any Christian down for believing what we do. Even if you do not recieve the same from Christians. I am so heart broken at how mean people can be. Just take the higher road, listen to what other people beleive and go on your way! You don't have to agree, you don't have to change it, just relax. It seems that everyone thinks their god is in control, so just sit back and enjoy the ride. I have complete faith the my God has everything in control even if I don't see it sometimes. That is my advice to every Christian and Pagan. Just leave others alone and trust whatever God you beleive in. With how passionate some of these comments have been I think it would come easily to most of you if your faith is a strong and your hate towards one another.

well here my 2 cents and my opion

well easter is a the begining of spring and in pagan relgion is a fertility period. the may poll is a fertility rite.

the crusifiction is purely astrological. the three kings is orions belt. he east star is sirus. and on Dec 25 hey algin in a way to where you can find where he sun is going rise that day. during the peroid from Dec 22 to 25 the sun passes in to a star fromation call the crucs where the sun stops for three days and on dec 25 the sun rise 1 degree denotoning the resurrection. throughout historical religion there hae been several acounnts of the Jesus thing where he was born on dec 25, died on the cross, entombed for three days and resurrected.

halloween is not a evil day in ancenit times it wa a day to remember the dead. jack-o-lantrens were to ward of evil spirits, and the costoms were to keep the children safe from evil spirits.

I personally am being pulled in every which way because i want to be open with every option...How can humanity come to some sort of agreement? Peace would be a good place to start...I just want to be a good person,and not bad in any way...loving...humble...etc...and that\'s not easy. It\'s apparent to me that there is some sort of universal \"entity\" for lack of a better word that unites us all and has a compassionate and understanding nature. I think religions may just be here to help people(not seperate us!) But then, why would there be any sort of condemning other people for holding a different belief? It seems to me, that every religion is contradictory of itself and they are for us to just take from the positives and leave the rest...since every person is indeed unique, their perceptions are as well....sorry for the bad grammar! :P

Research The book of Enoch. In it is the book of Watchers dated from about 300 BC. Enoch was the Great Grandfather of Noah who was takin into the Heavens by the Lord himself. He prophysied many things from the great Flood, Moses and the Isrealites, even the Messiah himself, Jesus. Infact his portrayel to the Messiah was so identical to Jesus of Nazareth that the Jews (after the crucifiction of Jesus) dismissed the book of Enoch because they did not except Jesus as Messiah. Anyway in The book of Watchers is discusses the fallen angels which wouldn\'t be written about for hundreds of years in a book called Genesis, the first book of Moses. It describes how these angels called watchers or Niphillim left their posts because they lusted for human woman and wanted to be with them and so they did. Upon living amongst men they taught men many secrets such as making war weapons, skilled combat techniques, making jewelry, and tons of other things as well as ASTROLOGY which Enoch referred to as the SECRETS OF THE HEAVENS. I\'m just going to explain something here then I\'ll leave you to your own thoughts and decisions. It\'s easy for people to believe that Jesus is nothing more than an astroligical myth made up centeries before he existed. It\'s just as easy to believe that he was prophysied in the stars and just as their is today, phsycics, astrologers, people with visions so on and so forth, I\'m sure they existed then too. If Jesus does not exist then we realy ought to pay homage to the one who created him don\'t you think? Jesus was a captivating man who preached words of authority, wisdom, love, and peace. I believe in Jesus as the Messiah and my personal savior. When Jesus was asked to show a sign that he was the messiah he said to them something along the lines of, \'This gereration seeks a sign but I assure you they will not get one\'. It\'s not about signs and proof. When you ask God (a supreme being) of his existence you are merely asking him to be a servant of man. God showed proof to the isrealites they even heard his voice which scared the crap out of them but they knew he was as real as night and day and you know hat they did? They lost their faith and broke his laws and worshipped false gods. What would you do with your proof besides live the rest of your life in shame?

I agree with your article greatly. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for all religion both monotheistic and polytheistic (as I -am- a Hindu) and really, I just don'et understand why people can't understand that the similarities are there between all religions. I mean, shouldn't it be a good thing that there are these simlarites that people from different religions can relate to? :)

As a Pagan I realize my belief system is not for everyone. I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and my husbands family are christians. I believe that everyone has a right to choose christianity it not for me but is the way for many people out there. The one thing I find hard through life tho is christians trying to force their belief system on me. Can they proof they are the right ones NO. They want respect for there religious beliefs but refuse to respect mine.
And to those quoting the bible (John 3:16 and such) asking how you can not believe in such a God. Go open a King James Bible and read 2 Kings 2:23 and keep reading then explain how you could put your faith in a God that is supposed to be Truelly Good and Pure but kills 42 children for calling a man a name.
We Pagans tend to see things more in a grey not black and white not even our gods and goddesses are Pure. How can a being that Pure kill children this is why I would never want to put my faith in your God. Believe what you will but stop pushing it on the rest of the world if they want to believe in Jesus they will go to you. I wouldn't force Paganism on you and would never try to convert others.Everyone should be allowed to choose.

Lots of good comments this time, I'm happy to see so many open minded people, and Faith, I wouldn't hold your French against you *laughing*

I would like to start out by saying that I do not intend to bash anyones beliefs. We should all be free to worship or not worship however we see fit. Also note that an Occult has an over-bearing leader and set of specific dogmas for their subordinates to follow. Most pagan beliefs are followed of ones free will. We only seek the wisdom of a more experienced teacher so that we can increase in knowledge. Whether or not we follow a particular path is our own decision. Now, I will state some facts and they can be taken or left.
I do not believe in human or animal sacrifice. The Old Testament speaks of and condones both in some way. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only son and when he proved he would do what God asked of him he was given a Ram to sacrifice in his son\\\'s place. The practice of animal sacrifice is a big part of their practices throughout the Old Testament. Then there is John 3:16. Would that not be human sacrifice or how exactly do you define it?
It is revolting to think of people who hate because of the color of ones skin or their culture. The Bible clearly speaks of genocide. What sense does it make for God to have man destroy his own creation? Did he make a mistake in creating them? Also, if God loves all equally, why would he have one race that he loves more than another? A God who is perfect would not ask that of anyone as it would clearly say that he made a mistake in his creation.
The Bible says that God made all things and that without him nothing would exist. This means he created Evil. The Bible then turns to say that God cannot think evil. How can this be. Explain this rationally without the use of the Bible.
I was raised Christian and at one time was a minister and I took the advice of the Bible and studied for myself. This brought me to where I am now. In this I have learned many facts and discarded what no longer made sense. At best, the faiths decended from Judaism, are a good story to read and at worst very destructive.
Finally, I would like to point out that the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus came to show people how to live with one another in peace and to love uncoditionally. He also taught us to forgive no matter the offense against us. Yet, if we do not follow a set of rules we are condemned to Hell. How could God ask us to do what he himself cannot. We are suppose to look upon \\\"evil\\\" with love and forgiveness yet he cannot look upon what he created. Unconditional Love is just what it states. Without conditions. If God believes that we are capable of this and him not, then are we superior to God? In all of this, what matters most is acceptance and tolerance of others beliefs. We should undoubtedly love our fellow man unconditionally. How a person worships God is trivial in comparison to how we treat each other. I believe that is the message that Jesus was trying to convey. Also note that in the original translations of the scriptures there is no Satan or Hell. This was a literary creation of Dante. Please, do yourselves a favor and research. It bothers me that so many mindless acts are done in the name of a God of some sort without rational thought. Faith can be a beautiful thing, but it can also be quite the opposite as well. This goes for all beliefs. We are an intelligent race and able to think for ourselves and come to reasonable conclusions that do not harm or degrade others for their beliefs. I feel that there is a common ground for Christians and Pagans. We just have to open our minds and not close them to other possibilities just because we are told that is what we are suppose to do. Question the powers that be. That is my advice. Then you will find the answers that are based on act on not delusion. Blessed Be to you all!

:'(

I'm going to make this short and simple......


Everyone was given Free will


THE END.

and fyi, Willow Silver Moon, Satan is mentioned. in Isaiah 14.

One last thing (for real this time):

It seems to me that some people here accusing the Christians of making sweeping generalizations are also making sweeping generalizations themselves. Yes, there are some very rich churches. I know of one nearby, and it's not even that big, that brings in 2 million dollars a year. But 1.5 million of that goes back out.
And isn't it true that it takes money to make money? If a church didn't make at least some money, how could it afford to provide less fortunate people with food or clothes, or send people to help in other countries such as Africa?
I'll agree that some churches take that to the extreme and kind of hoard their income. But not everybody does.

Yes, God had to set standards for the Israelites. So that they knew they had to make atonement for their sins. All the sacrifices and rituals was to pave the way for Jesus Hence to be forgiven for their sin they had to bring forth an unblemished sacrifice. Well Jesus was our unblemished sacrifice. When he preached he summoned up all the commandments in just 2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your strength, and all your soul sums up the first set and love your neighbor as yourself sums up the rest. Willow Moon fire or whatever your name is said How can God love one race better then the next but that's not the case at all. Someone above mentioned the book of Enoch. Enoch was the great grandfather of Noah. He prophesied the messiah long before any of the other prophets. one of the Messiah's purposes was to bring the Gentiles (non-Jews) to God. So that The Jew's God would not only just be their God but everyone's God. When God saved the Isrealites (Jews) from slavery in Egypt he refers to them as his first born. The first man Adam was a Jew. Now I'm not saying that he or anyone automatically loves their first born more than the others but there is a certain kind of closeness a parent might have with their oldest. After all they do pave the way and set the primary example for the rest of their siblings. My point being is God knew all that was going to take place before it ever happened. He had a plan from the moment he created us. As for the self sacrifice God did not let Abraham harm his son it was a test to see if he was truly devoted to God. Jesus sacrificed himself to save the whole world. He was willing to do this for his father, his God, his creator, the one who gave him life. I mean, are we just a bunch of superficial, ungrateful assholes that we can't even appreciate the one who gave us a breath of life? C'mon people wake up and smell the fortunate. Like Clear said, Everyone was given free will. God gave us the ability to think for ourselves. How awesome is that? He didn't have to do that. Now do yourselves a favor and read the story of Jonas. Yes, God is wrathful, He punishes the wicked and defiant just as a parent punishes their disobedient child. We do it for their own good. By the way, God did not create evil. There is good and bad in this world, God gave us the ability to choose which path to take.

Well, I'm kinda with Willow Silver Moon....Maybe God did create evil but think about it. If good and bad did not exist then we would not have free wiil.

well,I am honestly glad to have had my wonderful girlfriend to find this place out of curiousity.....and I must say over the yearson here, things have been humorous, some morons without a clue, some people with very intelligent thoughts....and no....those thinking pagans are evil....not intelligent, very ignorant perhaps, and when everyone says "god"....to some pagans ther is a goddess, not a god, and thers, there are both and possibly many of each.....but to say my 13 cents,....and it might have been brought up before...but didn't read everything.

People whom believe catholic to be the way, that is your thoght....but hear this......the fish and cross, both strong pagan symbols fromlong before jesus came around.....and the number 13....if anyone thinks it's a bad number....how many were total at the last supper?....Thank you....and how many were at the round table in the times of Arthur including himself? Many things show that catholic ways are pagan....I mean seriously.....jesus wasn't born on yule....or as many call it.....the mass of crist.......and easter?*falls over laughing*....egg.....rabbit........pagan.....ok.....I'm laughing too hard....going to check back later though to seewhat critics comment after me....

Blessed be,
Sarah's Dark Omen

well,I am honestly glad to have had my wonderful girlfriend to find this place out of curiousity.....and I must say over the years on here, things have been humorous, some morons without a clue, some people with very intelligent thoughts....and no ....those thinking pagans are evil....not intelligent, very ignorant perhaps, and when everyone says "god"....to some pagans there is a goddess, not a god, and others, there are both and possibly many of each.....but to say my 13 cents,....and it might have been brought up before...but didn't read everything.

People whom believe catholic to be the way, that is your thought....but hear this......the fish and cross, both strong pagan symbols from long before jesus came around.....and the number 13....if anyone thinks it's a bad number....how many were total at the last supper?....Thank you....and how many were at the round table in the times of Arthur including himself? Many things show that catholic ways are pagan....I mean seriously.....jesus wasn't born on yule....or as many call it.....the mass of crist.......and easter?*falls over laughing*....egg.....rabbit........pagan.....ok.....I'm laughing too hard....going to check back later though to see what critics comment after me....

Blessed be the typos fixed,
Sarah's Dark Omen

I think it's so funny that people see the parallels between the Old/New testament and pagan mystery religions and automatically jump to the conclusion that Jews borrowed from heathens and it's just absolutely impossible that in some cases it was the other way around? After all the ancient Jews did reside with heathens throughout their history. Don't get me wrong there are certain things Christians may have borrowed from heathens like Christmas on Dec. 25th. Emperor Constantine worshiped Sol Invictus on Dec. 25th the winter solstice and historically the first date celebrated as the birthday of Jesus was Jan. 6th and still is in some Eastern countries but when Constantine CONVERTED to Christianity he wanted to keep the celebration for Jesus on the 25th so they didn't have to do away with the winter solstice celebrations and it would make it easier on the pagans who were also converting to Christianity. Also, to the Christians who's faith might be tested about websites that say the story of Jesus was stolen from earlier mystery religions please stop believing what you read on the net and consult literature written by a credible historical scholar like I have cause you know why?? My faith had too been tested. Historical evidence shows that all stories of dieing and rising gods born of a virgin on Dec. 25th all Predate close to the second century although these religions have existed prior to Jesus they didn't start having the parallels till VERY WELL AFTER and the ones that do are so absolutely different and their so called resurrection was based on the vegetation cycles like when it was winter again the Sun was reborn. Get it? Let's look at the bigger picture here look how much Christianity impacted the pagan world, people who once worshiped whatever Gods they chose and lived whatever lives they chose but in the end they gave their selves to one God and were reined in heart by his son. To all the Christians who seek truth Read A case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel. It's a great book authored by a man who went from Atheist to Christian. He has a fascinating collection: A case for a creator/ A case for Jesus.

I think it's so funny that people see the parallels between the Old/New testament and pagan mystery religions and automatically jump to the conclusion that Jews borrowed from heathens and it's just absolutely impossible that in some cases it was the other way around? After all the ancient Jews did reside with heathens throughout their history. Don't get me wrong there are certain things Christians may have borrowed from heathens like Christmas on Dec. 25th. Emperor Constantine worshiped Sol Invictus on Dec. 25th the winter solstice and historically the first date celebrated as the birthday of Jesus was Jan. 6th and still is in some Eastern countries but when Constantine CONVERTED to Christianity he wanted to keep the celebration for Jesus on the 25th so they didn't have to do away with the winter solstice celebrations and it would make it easier on the pagans who were also converting to Christianity. Also, to the Christians who's faith might be tested about websites that say the story of Jesus was stolen from earlier mystery religions please stop believing what you read on the net and consult literature written by a credible historical scholar like I have cause you know why?? My faith had too been tested. Historical evidence shows that all stories of dieing and rising gods born of a virgin on Dec. 25th all Predate close to the second century although these religions have existed prior to Jesus they didn't start having the parallels till VERY WELL AFTER and the ones that do are so absolutely different and their so called resurrection was based on the vegetation cycles like when it was winter again the Sun was reborn. Get it? Let's look at the bigger picture here look how much Christianity impacted the pagan world, people who once worshiped whatever Gods they chose and lived whatever lives they chose but in the end they gave their selves to one God and were reined in heart by his son. To all the Christians who seek truth Read A case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel. It's a great book authored by a man who went from Atheist to Christian. He has a fascinating collection: A case for a creator/ A case for Jesus.

I think it's so funny that people see the parallels between the Old/New testament and pagan mystery religions and automatically jump to the conclusion that Jews borrowed from heathens and it's just absolutely impossible that in some cases it was the other way around? After all the ancient Jews did reside with heathens throughout their history. Don't get me wrong there are certain things Christians may have borrowed from heathens like Christmas on Dec. 25th. Emperor Constantine worshiped Sol Invictus on Dec. 25th the winter solstice and historically the first date celebrated as the birthday of Jesus was Jan. 6th and still is in some Eastern countries but when Constantine CONVERTED to Christianity he wanted to keep the celebration for Jesus on the 25th so they didn't have to do away with the winter solstice celebrations and it would make it easier on the pagans who were also converting to Christianity. Also, to the Christians who's faith might be tested about websites that say the story of Jesus was stolen from earlier mystery religions please stop believing what you read on the net and consult literature written by a credible historical scholar like I have cause you know why?? My faith had too been tested. Historical evidence shows that all stories of dieing and rising gods born of a virgin on Dec. 25th all Predate close to the second century although these religions have existed prior to Jesus they didn't start having the parallels till VERY WELL AFTER and the ones that do are so absolutely different and their so called resurrection was based on the vegetation cycles like when it was winter again the Sun was reborn. Get it? Let's look at the bigger picture here look how much Christianity impacted the pagan world, people who once worshiped whatever Gods they chose and lived whatever lives they chose but in the end they gave their selves to one God and were reined in heart by his son. To all the Christians who seek truth Read A case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel. It's a great book authored by a man who went from Atheist to Christian. He has a fascinating collection: A case for a creator/ A case for Jesus.

I have been a Pagan all my life, and have no end of respect for Christians. I have found many that scream in my face and shout over me when we talk on the flaws and merits of each religion, condemning me to hell then claiming I am beaten and then refusing to talk. However, the vast majority listen calmly to my views, then vice versa. With this point I want to apologise for the way my family's (they are chrisitan) brothers and sisters are acting on this discussion. Majority are good and thoughtful, but a few are quite rude. I have also noticed a few rude pagans with the same behavior on here. Want to apologise for that too. We are not all like that, and it is these people who give both sides a bad name.

Both religions are different in many ways, but why focus on differences? Both teach very similar things - respect, tolerance, peace, forgiveness and enjoying the life you lead.
If we both followed these teachings, Christians will be treated well by the Pagan God and Goddess, and in my opinion, Pagans would be treated well by the Christian gods because I have read the bible and although some Christians believe their god is vengeful against heathens, he is quite the reasonable fellow in many parts. If we follow the teachings of the Pagan Threefold Law etc. we are also following God's commandments, and vice versa.

While this article has a few mistakes [Easter is not associated with Ishtar, but with Eostre and Jesus was most probably born in June based on astronomical data] at it\'s core, the author is trying to make a valid point - Christianity lifted/borrowed/stole much of its mythos from other religions and then called them false. When one does any kind of research on this they can see that it is true.

Mac - calling another\'s faith \'evil\' exposes how narrow minded you and others like you can be. There are many ways, not one \'right\' way - and the world would be a better place if people in all faiths respected each other. Let me address of few of your misguided points:


\"1.Paganism is evil because it\'s made up. People made paganism so they could add a alternative part to there magick doing. They also made it up to find who the creator was but they were wrong weren\'t they?\"

-- Paganism has existed for over 20,000 years all over the world. Perhaps you refer to Neopaganism here, but the resurgence happening today is not a result of people making anything up, rather it has more to do with freedom and and many no longer having to fear persecution.



\"2.It has to do with magick and occult practice.(SACRIFICES, DEPENDING ON YOUR SELF TO BANISH SPIRITS AND BRING MIRACLES, CONTACTING EVIL SPIRITS, DANCING UNDER THE MOON NAKED WITH HERBS, ETC.\"

-- Here you could be speaking of ANY of the world\'s religions including the big 3 [Christianity, Judaism & Islam]. What you call prayer we call ritual. Jesus himself was sacrificed for his followers... the real issue here is that pagans don\'t believe in needing an intermediary when speaking to their god/goddesses.



\"3.It contradicts itself. Have you ever noticed that paganism says its good yet many things in it are bad? Have you ever noticed that new MADE UP gods come in every 100 hundred year or so? From these contradictions paganism is FULL BLOWN EVIL!\"

-- huh? what are these many things? And as for one\'s God being \'made up\', well that is Jesus you\'re talking about. His mythology is cobbled together from many different Gods that had been around for thousands of years before his worship. Mithras, Bacchus, Osiris to name just a few.



\"Reasons pagans are wrong about Christianity-

1. ...Have you ever noticed why we celebrate Christmas and Easter?...[rant edited]\"

-- We noticed, thanks. We noticed that the Church took over key dates on the Pagan calender in an effort to suppress our worship and to force people to convert. We didn\'t miss it, thanks.



\"2.Pagans say that Christianity contradicts itself because they claim people WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS rob, steal, and murder....\"

-- this is true of people period. They are imperfect and hail from any/all faiths. There are good and bad everywhere.


\"Some Reasons why Christianity is good-

1.We worship the TRUE creator\"

-- Why is it that you must be right and everyone else must be wrong? Why? Elitism is an ugly thing....



\"2.We do moral deeds to please GOD and others\"

-- Pagans are moral because it is the correct thing to do, not to earn brownie points or buy ones way into the afterlife



\"3.We are healthy. We try to live good sinless lives as pagans don\'t believe and sinning and the devil and they don\'t care rather they do and WORSHIP these things.(this is another reason why paganism contradicts its self). How do you know that the devil is not behind your gods. How can your gods be gods if they can be destroyed on the fact that you worship nature and nature can be destroyed?\"

-- Monotheism seems to have a cancer in it at it\'s misogynistic core, so I would contest that it\'s healthy for anyone, let alone the planet. Sin & the Devil are constructs of the Christian faith and do not exist in paganism. They are the whipping post its followers are tied to so they obey. The last argument is rather odd, nature being destroyed.... all matter can be destroyed. *shrug* IDK what you\'re trying to say here.



\"Reasons how Christianity is evil-~BLANK~Nothing NO EVIL ZONE\"

-- come on, let\'s get real. From misogyny to the Inquisition, from tearing down other\'s sacred places to the Crusades. Ancient Christianity was rife with Evil. Hitler\'s atrocities, Salem\'s burnings, the list goes on and on....

Look no one is right... Nor is anyone wrong. I\'m not pagan nor am I christian I\'m catholic. (which is similar...) but, think about it.... Does it really matter who is with what relgion? As long as your happy then that\'s all there is to it. Right?

Surely no religion can be totally right? The spirit or the divine or god or whatever you want to call is meant to be beyond our comprehension anyway agreed? And yet every religion in the world says that they have managed to comprehend something which is meant to be beyond our comprehension...surely it doesnt matter what deity you worship or which church you go to, if you conduct your life in a positive way, love everyone harm no-one and be at peace with yourself and the world around you surely that is the way you should be?

I totaly agree with you man....there arn't many differances in facted the christain/jewish religions stole many things from paganisim for one the notion of satan and hell both pagan ideas...and even the christain god is modled after an old pagan one. There are too many similarities to be ignred and the fact they took the pagans most religious symbol and use it as a symbl of the devil is kind of messed up...sure paganisim has many gods but christianity,jewdisim, and even islam has angels...kinda like gods helpers many of there personalites and responcabilities were the same as ancient gods....thou shAll not steal other peoples religons and contort it to your will.

What kinda moron would believe these fairy tales that you all speak of?? When I become an enlightened thetan, I will make sure to look down upon all of you and ridicule you for your blasphemous beliefs. Maybe you all should look into the writings of the great L Ron Hubbard!!

USE IT!!!

I don't need to spew out facts, as several people already have. But yes, historically, Paganism existed long before. There's a reason the Jehovah's witnesses do not celebrate a lot of the holidays, because even they have the mental capacity to realise this, while somehow maintaining an alternate degree of ignorance at the same time. You can read the bible and find references to there being a polytheocracy, especially the good old "Let us make man in our image and of our likeness," which was before the "Trinity" came to exist.

In response to myke's post on 04/15/09, you're absolutely right, which I'd also like to include that the Catholic saints who play out the same roles as some of the Pagan deities, they just have different names.

SnowRaven, your 03/29 post is sheer brilliance and I am pleased to have read it and only wish I could converse with you personally. You have my utmost respect. Your name also tickled me a little. Not in a jeering manner, but that I am Frost Raven :) Blessed be )O(

To my bretheren, stand down from your malicious attacks towards Christians. It is not their fault. That's simply how things are. Most of them do not or refuse to see the bold faced facts, even after a lot of the time they say them without realising it, because the majority of them were told these things since they were children. It is just human nature to plant a firm footing on what you've been told your entire life. Forgive them and move on. There's a difference between debate, defense, and attacking. Don't stoop to the level of attack. Everyone needs something to believe in, they've found peace and solice in what they have just as you and I, and it is our duty to accept and embrace everyone and harbor no ill will or ethnocentristic ideals. I do understand their stubbornness, just remember it's natural.

Goddess Bless All )O(

All religions are connected but there can only be one true God above all the rest. Remember people were forced to believe Jesus died on a cross for their sins and many were killed who refused to.
I believe in Jesus but i think the story goes back much farther than they want you to think. This has been done to control people into believing in false authority and submission to tyrants as well as keep us constantly slaughtering each other. sad yes
It becomes very clear once you drop the Vail and stare at the beast for what it is. Hopefully this will get resolved soon
Peace God Bless

First of all I just want to say that the worship of false gods is a big time sin. There is only one God and to worship these false gods in his place is an abomination. I don\\\\\\\'t care if this is upsetting to some of you out there. The truth is the truth no matter what some of you people try to tell yourselves.

Some of you say that paganism must be true because it was around before christianity. This is absolutely false as well. Paganism might have been around before christianity but God was around before paganism. God created the heavens and the earth. God then created the human race. However there was a war in heaven. Satan and 1/3 of the angels were kicked out. Everyone who has read genesis pretty well knows this stuff. What some of you don\\\\\\\'t know is that there is a book missing from The Bible.

The Book Of Enoch was discovered in the mid 1900s written on documents called the Dead Sea Scrolls. They were found in 11 caves I believe all around the Dead Sea. This book tells about how the fallen angels had sexual relations with human women. The offspring of these fallen angels are called nephilim. They are basically super people. You know people like Hercules. Goliath in the story of David versus Goliath was a nephilim. Thats just one example of the bible supporting the Book Of Enoch.

That is where your beloved paganism comes from. People back in those days werent worshipping \\\\\\\"gods\\\\\\\". They were worshipping the fallen angels that were kicked out of heaven. As a result of fallen angels/nephilim corrupting the earth God had to flood the earth to get rid of these super human people which is why they no longer exist today. That is a biblical fact.

Don\\\\\\\'t be foolish people. Paganism is only here to trick you into worship of these false \\\\\\\"gods\\\\\\\" so that you will have to suffer with them for all of eternity. The fallen angels that you worship teach doctrines of devils. They teach things like astronomy, telepathy, magic, and so on so forth. All these things The Bible says to stay away from. Coincidence? All these fallen angels are here to do is trick you. Bottom line!

Oh and for those of you who think that The Bible is a book based just on faith I have to disagree. Just because you have to have faith doesn\\\\\\\'t mean that the stories in The Bible arent true. Here are some FACTS from The Bible for example.

Jesus told us that there would be wars and rumors of wars.
I don\\\\\\\'t even have to explain why this is correct.

False prophets and false christs Jesus mentioned as well. Jim Jones and David Koresh ae examples of this. I guess Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about again. Fact!

Jesus said that there would be famine. Look at Africa and you cannot say that this is not true.

Earthquakes are another biblical fact. From 1890-1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world. Now there are so many in a month that you can barely count them.

These are just a couple examples of the bible telling the truth. To say that the bible is a book based just one faith is fale. Yes faith is important but it doesnt make the bible any less real. Everyone needs to take The Bible more seriously.

As far as the Spanish Inquisition goes a lot of people don\\\\\\\'t understand what it was really about. It wasn\\\\\\\'t just about religion as most of you believe. It was about Spain expanding it\\\\\\\'s power. They just used to religion to try and accomplish this. These people were not real christians. Thats why they call it the Spanish Inquisition and not the Christian Inquisition. The word christian means christ like. Was torture or murder from these people christ like? I don\\\\\\\'t think so. Christ was a real christian. These people were not. The inquisition was a lot like Halloween. You dress up like something but that doesn\\\\\\\'t mean that is really what you are underneath.

Get real people! Accept Christ as your savior and be baptised. It\\\\\\\'s the only way to heaven when you die.

Do yourselves a favor and memorize that last paragraph.

The only one who should be doing name calling, of evil or not evil is God, however you perceive it. No one else should be judging or saying who is going to Hell, or Reincarnate or whatever. As for Christ's teachings it is very clear: Love one another...love your neighbor as yourself. Pagan, or Christian,they are your neighbors... where is the love?

No human can fully know the heart of another human, faith is important, but how we love day in day out is more... this article was very interesting, and the comments even more...

SnowRaven for being a pagan you sure need to do your research on Mithras, Bacchus, Osiris. Mithras was born of the virgin rock Eh?
Dionysus aka bacchus was born of the virgin Zeus thigh? lol

HEY, IF THE ROCK AND THE THIGH HAVE NEVER BEEN PENETRATED THAN YES, IT IS A VIRGIN...DUH!!!

Wow i must say all this was very interesting. Some of it right down scary, some of it right down funny. And most of it , well lets keep it at that. BUT it will be very interesting to see who makes it where in the end huh...? But personally i just want to say this I dont care who is right or wrong anymore im tired and want it to all just end...lol...im ready to goto that Summerlands, or Heaven if grace is given to me by GOD/or GODS and GODDESSES . I just want to go where it is the end to all this Hatedred, and sorrow. I want peace of mind, i want good health...Ive been at both ends of this debate, ive been Christain and currently Pagan now. And yes i agree there is a truth out there... But who is to say who is right and wrong? Or even if it even exsist. Dont know about the rest of you but im ready. Want it all to just be over, does this mean the end of what we know as the World. yes to me thats what im saying , let it happen and let it be quick im tired and restless im ready for it either way if im right or wrong im ready.
Blessed be to you all.

Just to perhaps bring another angle to the debate here I\'d like to suggest that the problem we are all facing, Christians and Pagans alike, is that we are dealing with a metaphysical principal, and as such finding a sigle rational answer may well be outside our reach. I\'ve seen quite a few people try to make statements about what is the \'Truth\'... Perhaps take a minute and see if you can actualy define what exactly \'Truth\' is before you go trying to argue that you have it.

A lot of great minds have tried to do this, with varying degrees of success, but I don\'t think anyone has yet managed to come to a conclusion on that one, so if you do, please, let me know. One of my favorate definitions thusfar, if a little longwinded, is by Nietzsche: \'What is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, anthropomorphisms – In short an aggregate of human relationships which, poetically and rhetorically heightened, become transposed and elaborated, and which, after protracted popular usage, pose as fixed, canonical and obligatory. Truths are illusions whose illusoriness is overlooked\' - From an essay entitle Truth and Falsehood in an Extra-Moral Sense. What ever you think of Nietzsche, he was one hell of a writer :D

Another couple of words i\'ve seen thrown around a fair bit are \'good\' and \'evil\', which once again are harder to pin down than they may seem. Let me give you a basic argument as an example; a few of the moral arguments I\'ve seen here have been most definately realist (i.e. You believe that morals actualy exist in the world - in God/in the Bible for example), but if this is so, we should, the morals being inherently \'good\' or \'evil\', all perviece them in the same way and thus all agree. Quite obviously we don\'t. So, either they don\'t exist out there in the world but rather are a construct of the human mind, in which case using overarching statements like \'good\' and \'evil\' seem pretty pointless, or, as seems to be the more common christian approach, some of us have \'faulty\' perceptions. But, if this is the case, how are we to prove who exactly has the faulty perceptions? There is no way of objectively proving who is percieving things correctly and who isn\'t... So once again we return to our original problem. And thus we end up running round in circles and getting very upset with each other.

The final point I will make is simply to point out the logical problem of using a religious text as a defence of its own religion... It leads only to a circular argument, as I think a few people have already pointed out. For example; How do we know Christianity is true? It says so in the Bible. How do we know the Bible is true? Its Christian. ... Continue ad infinitum.

One will frequently read statements to the effect that the Hebrew word elohim is plural, as can be seen from the ending -im. The complete thought behind this claim is that this plural form is a sufficient indication that there is plurality in the Godhead. With this plurality firmly in place, some conclude that the biblical references to a Father and to a Son are God's way of corroborating that God is a family of divine beings headed by the Father.

Let us ask the relevant questions. First, is the form elohim plural? So long as the question is about the form, the answer is that indeed it is. That, however, does not mark the end of the relevant questions that should be asked. There is a second important question to be answered, about the sense of the word. Is the sense of the word elohim plural? The answer is that it is not. This word has one form, but more than one sense, for which reason it is found both in singular and in plural constructions. This is a feature of the Hebrew language, not an indication of the nature of God, as will be explained below.

All languages make a distinction between the form and the sense of a word. In English, the word "put" has one form. This form is made up of three specific letters laid out in a particular order, but the senses of that form are many. "Put" may mean the act of placing in a particular location (in the present tense). It may mean the act of having already placed something in a particular location (in the past tense). It may mean an entirely different kind of act, such as a ship's sailing into a port or harbor. Moreover, "put" can take a singular construction or a plural one (he put, or they put). The person who knows English is not confused when the same form is used with different senses. Neither is the Hebrew speaker confused by the one form and the different senses of elohim.

Those who argue the nature of God from the fact that elohim is a plural form make a fundamental mistake. They are under the impression that it is the form of this word that determines its sense! No English speaker would insist that the form of "put" be the guideline in determining its sense. Neither is that possible in Hebrew. In fact, that would generate utter confusion. In Genesis 1:1, for example, to take elohim as plural in sense would distort the Hebrew text for the following reason.

The English verb "created" has the same form in the singular and in the plural. The sense, however, is clearly seen when a pronoun is attached (he created, or they created). In Hebrew, the singular and plural of this verb are two different forms. This verse uses the singular form (bara, "he created"). This verb, then, prevents the interpreter from considering only the form of the English verb. One must look at the sense, otherwise a wrong interpretation will be attached to the verse. In the Hebrew text of Genesis 1:1, both the form and the sense of the verb "created" are singular. There is no possibility of a different understanding of that verb. By itself, it means "he created."

Those who propose the idea of a family of divine beings acknowledge that the verb is in the singular number and that its form and sense are singular. But they dismiss this detail by saying that there are instances (in English, for example) in which a singular verb accompanies a collective noun (a family is, a nation is, etc.). This move is in error, because it presupposes (it starts with the premise) that the name "God" stands for a group of beings. Thus a new, third, relevant question must be asked: Does the word "God" refer to a group of divine beings? The Jews say, "Of course not. That is preposterous." The Muslims say the same, and the Christians traditionally have held the same view as the Jews and Muslims.

The advocates of the family of divine beings acknowledge that such a concept is preposterous to Jews, Muslims, and Christians, but they see that as an indication of the error in which these religions are steeped. As for traditional Christianity, the attack is leveled at the Church Councils. The claim is made that such councils were the devil's playground, because the only thing that seemed to matter was what men thought, not what God's word teaches. This approach to the subject invites a fourth relevant question regarding the family of God. How do the advocates of a family of God beings proceed to establish that God's word, the Bible, means a group of divine beings when it uses the word elohim? Their answer is that this is a plural form. But, as explained above, a plural form does not necessarily suggest a plural sense. This is where the fundamental mistake lies.

The above explanation leaves one question unanswered. How did a reference to the true God end up as a plural form? Since the question is about the form, it is a question about the Hebrew language. It is not about the nature of God. Even so, the answer is not difficult to understand. Hebrew has its own characteristics as a language. Among these is the way in which it expresses might, authority, and reverence. An example from the Old Testament may make the point clear.

In Exodus 4:16, Moses is told that Aaron would be to him for a mouth, while he would be for a god (elohim) to Aaron. First, the form of elohim is plural, yet Moses was clearly one person — not a group or family of beings. This is sufficient to indicate the distinction that must be drawn between the form and the sense of a word. Second, Moses was to be like elohim to Aaron, only in the sense that he would be in a position of more authority and respect. The same expression is used in 7:1, where Moses is told that he would be like elohim to Pharaoh.

These examples show that elohim has a singular sense, despite its form. In order to understand how the form arose, one needs to examine the development of linguistic forms that the Israelites inherited from those who spoke Semitic languages before them. In polytheistic societies such as those of the Canaanites, Amorites, Egyptians, etc., a plural reference to the gods would be standard, and hardly out of place. As the language undergoes changes in a monotheistic society such as Israel, it is natural that older forms would be used with new senses.

For example, in English, the form of the word "conversation" has remained unchanged since the days of the King James Bible, but the sense of this word has changed to suggest speaking, rather than conduct. The reasons for the semantic shift are to be found in a detailed study of the way the language developed under certain internal and external influences. This is a linguistic project, whether the focus is on an English word like "conversation," or a Hebrew word like "elohim." Just as the form of the word "conversation" does not bring to mind one's conduct, so with "elohim"; it does not bring to mind any concept of polytheism, and there is no discrepancy with the consistent rejection of polytheism throughout the Scriptures.

Just had to clear this up. This is for the "LEARNED" Christian above..Here you go fool I mean Reese.

Excellent points you make and I can't say I will make a good argument against that, not to mention I only glanced over it. However, that still doesn't explain the other references throughout the bible of a polytheocracy. The evolution of the bible due to the greed I prior mentioned slowly grew to condemn those beliefs because why would they shove a religion down peoples throats, claiming there is only one god, but have doctrines citing that there are actually multiple gods? Why would they perpetuate scriptures promoting those beliefs? That is why it was changed for the most part, but not completely. And you still failed to explain the contradictions in the bible, its inconcistencies. How can someone acknowledge the fallicies of this thing, but still try to dispute that fact by saying it is a perfect guideline to life? It isn't. It is only a rough guideline to your religion.

Were it not for the "fool" remark, I would actually like to sit down and have a conversation with you. You're obviously an intelligent person and you do have my respect for that alone.

Very interesting piece Dark Angel. I myself have studied many religions and have to point out to christians, with all due respect, simple historical facts are that christianity is a new religion. Paganism or polytheism dates back to ancient egyptian times when people worshipped more than one god and believed in miracles and magic, whether or not you believe in that now is irrelevant, it is simple historical fact that paganism predates christianity. Now, I am a firm believer that we are all entitled to believe whatever we choose to believe and think it is wrong for any religion to claim other believes are wrong. Personally I find more truth in paganism that I do in christianity but that is my personal belief, however I do not practise. For those claiming that paganism is evil, you cannot do so, it is an ancient religion, a rich, powerful one in it's own right and cannot just be condemmed by christians as false or evil especially not seeing as its roots date back to the beginning of civalization, the same cannot be said about christianity so I do believe alot, not all but alot, of christians need to open their eyes and accept that theirs is not the only religion.

Also with regard to the sacrifices. If you are talking about ancient egyptians, they sacrificed animals, it was the incas who practiced human sacrifices and I do not believe there is a single religion, including paganism, that will say this is a good thing, however, hard truth is, this is just the way things were in those days. Forgive me for being brutal here but it does make me giggle when christians play high and mighty and claim other religions are evil for these reasons when Christianity commited cold blooded murder when it first caim to power, wiping out anybody who dared still believe in the old religions.

Fact: Christians are not all purity and light, they claim any religion that commited a sacrificial act, millenia ago is evil, however christians century's ago committing cold blooded murder is ok because they were helping god get rid of evil on earth. *coughs* you see where I am going with this?

Ok, I have now said my piece. Again, excellent piece of writing dark angel.
My apologies to christians, I was not attacking any of you, I'm sure the majority of you are delightful people, I was merely stating facts, historical and other, I hope I have not offended any of you.

I only want to say that this has been very helpful to me. I had been struggling with issues here on myself being pagan and my sister being christian which was not always the case as far as she goes. I also mean no disrespect to christians, I believe we should all listen to our hearts and soul. Believe whatever makes you comfortable, but by no means should you force anyone elses religion on anyone else. This is where the problem comes.My sister and I were quite close once upon a time, we did cards together,prayed together even did circles together. Then she moved to a small town in NH , that was the end of us not only being friends, but also being sisters. Yes we are blood but since she has found christianity she is in no way the same woman I have known for all her life.She is angry and judgmental and spiteful. It is either her way and if not wow, she goes off. We come from the same somewhat disfunctional family and I know where I came from and am not ashamed. She is living like she is ashamed of our parents.(her mom is my step mom from when I was 10 months old.)all of a sudden I am now her 1/2 sister!!!!

The thing is, is this woman has written a book, but I think she is a hypacrit for her book what it is and how she really is. She has no right to condem us or other religions but can preach?????// I am so upset with her but happy for her at the same time. Can anyone offer any logical advice as to how to deal with her and keep her a sister as she was.(without converting). I would really appreciate any help.

It seems to me that no matter what is said, nothing is gained.

People are on this Earth, yes. But where does is say anywhere that we all have to be identical to eachother? Nowhere. No two people are alike so who\'s to say that we all have to believe in the exact same thing?

Paganism is an umbrella term, not a specific belief. It\'s not dogmatic, so there are no set rules that needed to be followed. But some people prefer the structure. Others don\'t.

I personally am Pagan. I was not born into a Pagan family. Actually, my mothers side of the family was originally Protestant then converted for personal reasons to Roman Catholic. My fathers side is Jewish. I was raised to be Roman Catholic but chose to be pagan. I found that Paganism was closer to what I personally believed. Do I believe in a higher being? Yes. Do I think it\'s the \"God\" spoke of in church? No. That \"God\" punishes his people because they don\'t do as he says. I don\'t tihnk that\'s right, in anyway, shape or form. A \"God\" to me is supposed to love you no matter what. And damning to to the fires of hell just doesn\'t seem like love.

Although we all don\'t believe the exact same thing, what does that have to do with who we are as people? Nothing. We are who we are because that\'s how we are. Period. One of my best friends is a strict Orthidox Christian but we are still friends cause we don\'t see eachother by the color of our skins or by our beliefs. We just see the girl standing in front of us, and love her no matter what.

Why can\'t the rest of the world?

There have been many valid and invalid points made on this article. But you can\'t force someone to believe something that they don\'t. If you think that something isn\'t true, it\'ll never truely be true to you. And that\'s the way it is.

So take a step back and look at the world around you. This is your home. The person standing next to you also lives here. Treat them and the Earth with respect. Cause once one of them is gone, they\'re gone forever.

Nicole Dobshinsky (age 17)

all religion should be wiped out
so that people may just live
what divides us is an illusion
made up by men in their confusion
by ziggy marley



I have lived both sides of the fence. I admit that I really do not know. I have my opinions and my knowlege, but what good would arguing it do to those who already have their minds made up? Peace and love

Every day is just a day to sing your praises.
Every day is just a day to give you glory.
so while the faithless fret when destruction come.
where they gonna run? Let Jah will be done.

Ziggy Marley

i think there alot of things that we don't know and only death will reveal the truth. but besides that i think going on about 1 main religion isn't good either. people should do what they were taught to do and so on