Paganism vs. Christianity

I agree that we need to have more of an open mind. When one religion goes off the rails it is superceded by the next. I wonder what the next fad will be to teach principles and decency.

Great article!

I am the way the truth and the life, noone can come to the father(God) except through me." Jesus

i am not completely sure
On the remark of Jesus being born on the 25 of December, as far as i know it is that the catholic church set that day as a holiday, like allot of the holidays that christens celebrate. When people are converted to a new religions they bring some part of their culture with them. Look at some black churches that have African traditions.

Nice Article

i have no respect for the christian church, pagans were converted by force. if jesus was from jerusalem then why did christians kill jews in the crusades. christians have funds for the poor. if this is true then why as an organisation is the church of England one of the richest organisations in the world

The christian religion is first (And why is that? B/c of GOD) and someone had to come up with another religion b/c of "What? This man says he is GOD's son? I can do better, let's have many gods and deny our maker" Sure, you are all nice and all I'm sure but I feel sorry for you pagans. Ignorance and stubborness you have, what a shame. I agree with Cassie.

Research Jesus Christ and what HE said... all you mention is what the Catholic Church has done in the past. Not every person who claims to be a follower of Christ is one. Jesus says himself that on the day when he judges the world people will come up to him and say "Lord, did we not cast demons out in your name and spread you word" to which He will say "I NEVER knew you".

Jesus is the only way to the Father, period. It is not politically correct, it is just correct.

Paganism failed because it answers NONE of the answers mankind has sought to know - it became hollow ritual, legalistic and corrupt (example Rome).

Open yourself up to both sides of the debate, and make an educated choice for Christ. He knocks at the door, open and let Him in.

In Christ
+Rick

Rick, why is it that you yourself havent researched paganism??
dont ask others to do what you yourself wont do.



the point of this discussion was to see both sides, all your doing is trying to convert in a very dumb way

Cassie,
The bible can say Jesus said whatever it wants hims to say. Doesn't mean Jesus said it.

Raquel,
If you actually research your history, you will discover that Christianity was not first. In fact, it is one of the youngest religions. The first monotheistic religion was Judaism. Next was Islam, then Christianity. But before monotheism was polytheism, or paganism (as we call it now). The idea of one God is a relatively new idea within the history of religion. Before Judaism, nobody believed in only one God.

Rick,
You aren't keeping an open mind. You're proselytizing. If you had an open mind, you would not need to make statements like that. And proselytizing goes against the teachings of love and tolerance within your bible. Nice try, though.

Darkangel,
Wonderful article!

Rick-

If you call ancient Rome corrupted (I'm assuming you meant the time period in which Jesus lived) and evil because of its religion, how can you not look at your own religion and say it's not corrupted?

Ever actually listen to the words your bible preaches about? "Don't point at a speck in another man's eye when you have a log in yours" or whatever.

Christianity is not innocent of killing and injustice. Ever heard of the witch hunts? The Spanish Inquisition? The Crusades? The Holocaust? The KKK?

The Church now is probably one of the richest organizations in the world, and preachers and priests talk about giving to the poor when the Pope lives in his own country in a life of luxury. Tell me that is not corruption.

I was raised a Christian, with a pastor as a father and a devout mother as parents, but still I know better than to believe what the Bible tells me.

Great article

Forgive them, Father for they know not what they do.....

Actucally The Empty Crux, there is one ancient historian that states that there was really a man named Jesus. The historian's name was Josephus. HOWEVER, he does not mention any miricles or anything of that nature. He only said that he lived, he was a good man, he was kiled by pilate. He does not mention really anything else of Jesus.

ELC, yes you are right. Research and studing history showed that Jesus was born in the spring time because that was the time of year when the shepards were out.

And for Rick, you live in the city of fools, travel the road to nowhere and blind to its exits, you hate what you do not understand. And jesus is not any reason to destroy the earth or disrespect her. Last but not least, RICK and DJ, Jesus was not a belief pusher, neither should be you.

i dont think its fair to for people to arm twist anyone into receiving jesus if they dont want. HOWEVER, please note the bible says that it is appointed for ever man to die once and after that to face the judgement. this is true everyone is going to die some day maybe you have 20years left or one month or one hour but the fact is you will die and guess who you will meet? I am just wondering what will happen to people who mocked Jesus but it will be too late. Personally I think you may be in grave danger if you are busy hating Jesus and if you have not sought Jesus' cover but then dont then dont let us Christian freaks force you only you can decide to do that for yourself. I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats's how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I am in college right now, and I am researching Christianity on a clinical level, to discover whether or not there are any new traditions, beliefs, or key points in Christianity. So far, I have found very little to substantiate the Christian beliefs and promises that their way is the only way, or the right way. Over and over again, I see where Greeks, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Egyptians, Turks, and more have all contributed to the origins and development of Christianity. I see the Christians that have responded to this article, and while they can reasonably quote the bible, they can not back up their arguments with an factual evidence as support. (Just a side note - the bible is NOT considered a factual, historic document by anyone, including Christians. It is a faith-based book. The definition of faith is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.)

To examine the origination of Christianity and accept it as absolute proof of truth is fallacy. To examine the origination of Christianity, compare and contrast it to the other, ancient religions that came before it, and then make an educated opinion based on true knowledge is admirable. This is a well-written article, filled with fact. To dispute it based on what the bible says is to prove one's own ignorance.

I was raised full blown Christian and I better not ever think or doubt Jesus Christ. Why? Because it says in the bible not to question. I am interested in Paganism because I am very much in touch with Mother Nature. I know there is a higher being. I just have so many questions and I feel guilty for being uncertain.

Ok Paganism is evil. Want to know why? becuase its made up, its corrupted, and it has much to do with sacrofices and fake traditions.
REASONS WHY PAGANISM IS EVIL-

1.Paganism is evil becuase it\'s made up. People made paganism so they could add a alternative part to there magick doing. They also made it up to find who the creator was but they were wrong werent they?

2.It has to do with magick and occult practice.(SACREFICES, DEPENDING ON YOUR SELF TO BANISH SPIRITS AND BRING MIRACLES, CONTACTING EVILL SPIRITS, DANCING UNDER THE MOON NAKED WITH HERBS, ETC.

3.It condrodicts itself. Have you ever noticed that pagansim says its good yet many things in it are bad? Have you ever notcied that new MADE UP gods come in every 100 hundred year or so? From these condorodictions paganism is FULL BLOWN EVIL!

Reasons pagans are wrong about christianity-

1. Pagans say that we adopbted there traditions. We christians except the truth. Have you ever noticed why we celebrate Christmas and Easter? Why is christmas not yule? Heres you answer--- Its not the Yule tradition becuase on this day we dont celebrate the seasons as you do on Yule. We celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. We also celebrate good friday and holy saturday. We may use some objects such as candles but we do NOT do your rituals on this day. Christmas it also on the 30th of December and Yule is in the 20\'s of december.---
Why isnt Easter a christian tadition heres you answer--- Just becuase we call it easter and do egg hunts for FUN doesnt meen its your tradition. The real name for are day is \"The Ressurrection\" Not easter. We only participate in egg hunts for fun for our children not for some ritual. Our day celebrates the Ressurrection of christ and not your trdition of easter.

2.Pagans say that christianity condrucdicts itself because they claim people WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS rob, steal, and murder. The truth is those people arent really christians. Just becuase they call themselves christians doesnt meen they are christians. They just say they are and they really arn\'t. Also when your a christian it is evil to get inot WITCH HUNTS. Why? Becuase you are hunting for EVIL and that evil will come to you and destroy you.

Some Reasons why Christianity is good-

1.We worship the TRUE creator

2.We do moral deeds to please GOD and others

3.We are healthy. We try to live good sinless lives as pagans dont believe and sinning and the devil and they dont care rather they do and WORSHIP these things.(this is another reason why paganism condrodicts its self). How do you know that the devil is not behind your gods. How can your gods be gods if they can be destroyed on the fact that you worship nature and nature can be destroyed?

Reasons how Christianity is evil-

~BLANK~
Nothing
NO EVIL ZONE

I agree with the slave princess. How can you \"christians\" try to justify your agruments with verses from your own holy book? The book was written by men. I could write my own religious book and quote out of it. It makes a person appear quite narrow minded by not looking at the total picture. There are so many different factions and perceptions of christianity that noone knows who is right and who is wrong. Is it really a wonder why there are so schisms in the religion?

Is it mere coincendence that a lot of christian holidays occur around that same time as pagan holidays? Of course..because the christians blended a lot of pagan traditions in order to convert people into their religion. For instance Easter..
This is the quote from Mac.
The real name for are day is \\\"The Ressurrection\\\" Not easter. We only participate in egg hunts for fun for our children not for some ritual. Our day celebrates the Ressurrection of christ and not your trdition of easter.

If this is so why don\'t you call the day Resurrection and stop participating in egg hunts. This ritual has nothing to do with your holiday. Eggs and Rabbits are symbols of fertility and represent the celebration of the vernal equinox. Why would you have your children partake in a ritual that is unchristian and/or even evil?? You are obviously contradicing yourself and the ones you are guiding. Also I am not sure about Christmas being on the 30th.

Jesus is your truth and if YOU want to go to heaven it is through him. This is something else that is written in \"your\" holy book. Just because it is written do you believe. Perhaps you should do some research instead of blindly following the masses.
As far as corruption is concerned. As mentioned before the crusades were committed in the name or your religion, christianity. You really want to mention corruption? Why is the catholic church so wealthy and why are holy man of christianity commiting adultery and molesting children. Why? from what I gathered from reading other\'s comments because they are not really christians, even if they claim to be. That is an excellent defense *sarcasm*. Stop trying to force your religion on others. If it is right for you, then YOU follow it without trying to convert others. Have respect for others\' beliefs. They are not wrong because they have different views.

Lastly, if it comes from some made up book, was responsible for killing thousands of people, stole traditions from other religions, followed by hypocrites, condones fault-finding whenever possible, was created as a form of political containment long after paganism and even after other monotheistic religions, lacks physical evidence to support it..does not make it right. Faith does not equal fact Sorry!

John 3:16- "For God so Love the world that He gave His one and only Son, that who so ever believed in Him would not perish!"

Do you really not want to believe in a God like that? Who would send his Son for you. of course not ANY Christian was or is perfect, only God was and is perfect. But God Sent His only son to earth, so that He could relate to us as a person, and show that we can do good in the world and then HE died for our sins.
So that everytime we do sin again, he will forgive and still love us no matter how bad our sin.

I would rather live and believe in a loving God that would do nothing else but love us and do whats best for us, then to live for nothing at all. Thats my point!

God bless.

wow i thought i heard it all but there is alot of crying going on here im a pagan and im about peace mother nature not condemming ones faith think of it this way is there any difference in telling a kid if he doesnt do something he will go to hell thats child abuse plain a simple

You know, if you "Christians" want to start spouting fallacy and lies about Pagans while at the same time "reminding" us how wonderful the sacrifice of Jesus was, let me remind you that there is a God who suffered much more than Jesus ever did, and his name is Odin and he sacrificed so that we may have the knowledge to take care of this world until Ragnarok where we will all fight like warriors....

Odin hung by the neck from the Tree of Life for 9 days, his side pierced by his own spear, sacrificing himself for himself and us all. When he saw the runes of creation, he grasped then in agony for us, and gave us the tools we needed to live in his world.

You ask that in exchange for heaven all we must do is blindly bow and follow the teachings of zealots with a book. My God asks me to be a man and act as an honorable person, not judging others for which church they belong to, but the content of a person's character.

You, a mortal men who know nothing of freedom, ask me to bow to your God. My God asks me to be free, and stand up like man.

See you at Ragnarok. Pray you are on the side of the Asa.

All this talk is great. Any discussion about religion is good. What it comes down to is this.... we do not know.

The Bible says alot of things. But it is as stated, a book of faith.

And the bottom line is faith. When the end times come will you have faith in whatever you believe?

I think that when the end times come we will be surprised at where we end up. And we will also be surprised at who we see wherever we are.

Peace.

How true. Odin never asked for us to do anything but be oroud and honourable, and prove ourselves deserving. No blindly believing, to be greedy and want salvation, simply for being rude to others who differ. I ask you, as human beings too just realise everyone is different, difference is not evil.

I HATE PAGANS BECAUSE THEY ARE SMARTER THAN i AM AND THEY CAN SPELT BETTER AND THEY HAVE MORE GODS AND MY MOMMA AND DDADDY SAID THAT THEY WERE WRONG SO THEY MUST BE. WOW THEY ARE SOO DUMB, NOT WORSHIPPING MY GOD, HOW DUMB CAN YOU GET, MAKING YOUR OWN DECISIONS WITHOUT MY SKY FAIRY TO GUIDE YOU

YOU NEED BELZEBU...I MEAN JESUS

\"Do Only That Which Is Right!\" enough said.

I read all that I did, and realized that there is no way that people will fully understand our higher being. Noticed I did not give the higher being a name, just what it is. Who are we to judge others for their connection to this higher being? All in all I feel as tough we all worship the same \"God\" but just in different ways. I myself was raised to be Christian, but my feelings towards God is different from the church. Mind you there are many churches under Christianity just as there are many covens in Paganism. What you choose is your choice. I would not stop only at these religions but study all religions, and see what they all have in common. As Darkangle, the writer of this artical stated that there seems to be a connection. The only way to find out weather this is true or not is to discover for yourself. We may have different views, but perhaps we are not so far off from each other. The best thing that i can say is that if you don\'t understand something or fear something, then go straight to the source with an open mind and learn. take away your bias thoughts and honestly, simply learn. Who are we to say that there is only one way to God, if we do not know what God is? Does any book really tell you directly what God is, or just as we imagine God to be.

The Christian church included only the gospels that they wanted to and left out the ones they did not want. Where are the gospels of Phillip, Mary, Thomas, and Mary Magdalene? In the early gospels, there was no mention of a Resurrection, that was added later. Inns did not exist at the time of Jesus birth, mangers were nothing more than a feeding box and used quite often as a cradle. Travellers stayed in homes at that time because it was the hospitality of the culture. Jesus would not have been born in a stable. Joseph was a \"Master of the Craft\" not a carpenter. The Craft had nothing to do with woodwork. Translated originally from Latin, Mary was not a virgin, but a Virgo. Virgo meant young woman. Modern Latin is the same and if she were a virgin it would have read \"virgo intacta.\" Jesus the Nazerene, not Jesus of Nazareth. Nazareth was established 30 years after the crucifixtion. Jesus was ressurected on the third day from death. This was actually a release from excommunication of the church which required a 3 day waiting period, not a miracle. Jesus was the \"messiah\" which meant \"annoited one.\" All annointed senior priests and Davidic kings were considered messiahs. Archangels meant chief ambassadors. \"The Kingdom of Heaven\" was a monastery in Mird by the Dead Sea. \"Cloud\" was a title given to priestly leader of the pilgrims. If we now read the Acts verses as they were intended to be understood, we see that Jesus was taken up by the Cloud (the Leader of the Pilgrims) to the Kingdom of Heaven (the High Monastery). And the man in white (an angelic priest) said that Jesus would return at the time of restitution (when his Earthly marriage was restored). Jesus was also referred to as \"the Christ\"-a Greek definition which meant \"the King\". In saying the name \"Jesus Christ\", we are actually saying \"King Jesus\", and his kingly heritage was of the Royal House of Judah (the House of David), as mentioned numerous times in the Gospels and in the Epistles of St Paul. Sorry to disappoint you Christians, not trying to bash you, just presenting the facts so you realize that miracles are magic, there are no streets of gold, and Jesus\' original teachings are closer to Paganism than fictional Churchianity.
Blessed Be!

I strongly beleive to be Pagan is a sin..because without God there would be no Earth and there certainly would be no life. God created all and i dont believe anyone was forced to convert. Thats simply not the christian way. People just Dont understand christians and the church of england is Catholic not christian..There 2 completely seperate religions.

I agree..and whoever said there are no streets of gold how would you know...you dont..you cant say there arent if you have never witnessed heaven. You cant just go around telling people there beliefs are wrong just because they sound alittle weird to you..there may very well be streets of gold..unless you've been to heaven and come back you really wouldnt know and dont have the right to tell anyone otherwise.

um, April... The English Church is Protestant, idiot. They broke off from the Catholic Church so Henry the VIII could divorce whomever he pleased. Also, while I do believe without the meeting of Fire and Water in Nothingness there would be not Earth, i have look at you and shake my head. We do understand Christians. You are in our faces telling us that we are evil when if go back and look at the list of atrocities committed against Man, After the Nazi's, Christians come in second. Also, if you believe me being a Pagan is a sin (which is a Christian Construct), let me quote your book:

Judge not, lets ye be judged.

Elizabeth... What? Are you huffing?

And to European Pagan, while i agree with most of your post, I have to stop you on that last part. Jesus existed, there are enough accurate historical records to confirm that. Not disagreeing with you on your post, but c'mon.

Ok i went a little bit mad on the jesus dosen't exist but here is the thing there have many Gods before jesus and the god in the old testament why should we forget our Gods that gave us so much for a god that ignores everybody and lets people do whatever the damn hell the want.I have noting against christ but his followers have detroyed europe and other countrys for centurys,the crusades killed all the pagans that they could find who did not bow down to this christ god they never heard of.I don't want to bow to christ i will bow down to to odin and the rest of the european Gods i don't want to fooled to beleve that there is just one god

I am a PROUD Pagan but i find it quite trivial how we seem to let Religion pull the world apart the way it is, we are ALL human beings, we all have families, we all have lives, yes not all of us are "good" persay but if you look at it the majority of today's hate crimes are performed by supposed "Christians." You all talk about how loving and caring GOD is yet look at your Bible:

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)


How does that not contradict itself? The Bible is full of them and no one can come up with a good arguement to back what is said. The only thing i can say is "Love Thy Neighbor" let Bigons be Bigons, dont try and run some one elses life if they are happy the way they are.
I have not closed my mind to the possibility of GOD and JESUS but i am PAGAN, we, in a sense, worship the changing of the seasons, we KNOW it happens we witness it all the time there for it exists, provide me with the exidence needed and i WILL bow down before GOD and seek his forgiveness, but until then let people live their lives let us be, we(pagans) are people too, we have lives we have families. I do NOT mean to offend, if what i have said offends you i am sorry but i must speak my mind.

~Kristopher Williams (Age 17)

Solid snake you say love thy neighbor even though your god dosen't think like you its says in deuteronomy I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust. it sounds like your god is not only a prick but a tick to and what else does it say about wemon in deuteronomy Do not set up any wooden Asherah pole [b] beside the altar you build to the LORD your God, 22 and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates.and it sounds like your god hates a compatition no wonder why satan went against god is a prick and christian are sopse to fear god 12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the LORD's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? oh yes i really afraid of a coward who refuses to show his face i can see why i hate him and his church i think it's time for pagans to back what belongs to them death to god HAIL ODIN HAIL DAGDA HAIL CU-CUCLANN HAIL TO THE GODS

European pagan kick every christianass with that comment,not to mention that the 3 main religions islam christainty and jewdism is going to destroy the world look at all the violence the muslims are doing and the christians in northen ireland the catholics and protestants are killing each over there god over who is right and wrong and if pagans still rule europe there would no violence vikings went all over europe and had great merchints they did not go to each country and force there gods on them but islam and christianty force people into relgion and worship there fake god PAGANISM BACK IN THE WORLD HAIL THE GODS HAIL ZEUS HAIL HADES HAIL TO THE OTHER GODS

Now that i have been thinking about i have been bit of a prick i think i have been harsh but i stand by my beleifs and i apolgize it just that my ancestors have bullied and torted by christians for years and felt like i was spitting there face when i went to communion in the church but serously you have to admit alot of christians are losing there faith in christianty and look at ansetor belfeif and thats what i did and then i found out how crul the church was and that sent me into a rage against christians and your right about alot things i don\'t know what son of hades was going on about there about vikings now he was right about in some that does not deny the fact they rapped people i know you a perfect world without violence i know thats what we all want but i don\'t that will ever happen look there is war going there always fighting over beleifs but even i qustion myself about some i say or do and why and you are right there should a time people should stop fighting but think thats going when actully desyroys itself and i not your about beleif but there is alot of dints in the christain beleif....... Odins blessing

Thank you European Pagan, that is all I asked was an understanding, and you gave it.

Thank you

Thank Anu a christian who respects pagans you know i always thought christians were out to get pagans but thank anu that you are a wise christian anyway this is my last Odins blessing and may the lucifer shine his light upon all people (lucifer is not satan his name in latan means light bringer andhe is the son of jupiter)and he had noting to do with satan.and yeah your going to that im satanist for saying this satan but satan was a God well two when you look at pan or cernunnos they resemple the baphomet cool eh so for satainst they are worshipping a pagan god (and a very horny one)ahahah

first thing\'s first. i am not trying to convert anyone to paganism or any other religion. the only reason i am contributing to this forum is because i wanted to point out the defensiveness on the christians\' side. honestly, there are plain facts in front of you. the arguing should stop about what your Bible says. the Bible is NOT a factual book, as was stated before, and is considered faith-based, as was stated before. i personally am not disputing any beliefs on the christian side. i respect your religion, and am ashamed at how so many of you christians are so quick to put down something you know nothing about. now, if you\'ve done research and everything, and you\'re putting down facts, then that is understandable. but stop with the closed-mindedness. honestly, do you really agree with everything that the Bible says anyway? would you stone a man in public for being gay? would you stone your offspring, or your spouse, or your parents for believing in something besides christianity? that\'s what the Bible says to do in Deuteronomy. think about it. why would God say Thou Shalt Not Kill and then turn around and say \"hey, yeah, stone that guy to death for disobeying.\" in your religion, God states man will reap what they sow. it\'s a contradiction for Him to ask you to stone someone to death for \"sinning\".

grace- you stated, \"I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats\'s how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.\" but i was wondering who has told you this? did the man himself come back from the dead and speak to you and tell you his story? or is this just another story from the Bible? as it has been said before in this forum many times, the Bible has not been documented as fact, so unless you spoke to this dead man yourself and have evidence, then your statement is also fictious. again, i am not saying your religion is fictious, but base your beliefs of why your religion is the ONLY religion off some pure, hardcore facts.

Mac- that is just disgusting to me how you can sit there and claim that your religion is truth and ours is \"made up\". are you even listening to yourself? all religion is a belief in something. there is no set religion. we all create our own beliefs, but i laugh because paganism came BEFORE christianity was ever thought of. you sit there and judge other people for something you know NOTHING about. we are not evil. we have done nothing to harm you or your religion in any way. honestly, we sit here stating FACTS and you turn blindly away, because you do not want to see what\'s so plainly written in history, what is the TRUTH (referring to paganism being older than christianity, and the Bible being a faith-based book, and not historically proven to be fact, etc). we are not saying your God is non-existent. we are not saying you are wrong. it is not only an important verse in your book to love your neighbor as thyself, but it is also in the Constitution (if you are American) to allow every person to have Freedom of Religion. do not bash our way of thinking because you do not believe in it. you feel threatened, and that is why you attack. but no one has threatened you. so take off the battle gear and respect other\'s opinions and beliefs.

April- read some of your other fellow christians\' comments. there are attempts at conversion left and right in this forum! Rick was a prime example for it, followed by grace. you all feel you need to threaten us to turn us into good little God-fearing children so we can avoid going to hell. i\'m sorry, but i know that hell does not exist, and that is my belief, and i do not push it on anyone, because i have respect for others. also, a little fact about Jesus, which has been proven: Jesus traveled through India and Tibet for 17 years, studying AND teaching buddhist and hindu holy men. look it up. point is, Jesus studied buddhism and hinduism and then went on to teach it to others. NOT christianity. Jesus had an open mind to other religions. why can\'t christians? why can\'t you?

Kel- i\'m not going to try to convert you or convince you that becoming pagan is the only way, because it\'s not. buddhism is a beautiful religion. there\'s wiccan, a newer form of paganism, with slightly different beliefs that deal more with nature, but stems from paganism. and of course, you are already christian. but why do you need a label? why can\'t you be a little bit of everything mixed together? i am spiritual. i believe in what i believe in, but if you present me with fact, hey, i can\'t argue with that. but i\'m not going to change my beliefs just because you present me with facts on another religion, just like i wouldn\'t ask anyone else to do that. for me, being spiritual, leaning more towards wiccan than pagan, i find i am a very positive person and am strong in who i am because i\'m strong in what i believe. i worship everywhere, as well. i don\'t have to go to a certain place to speak with the Goddess or God. as one of my bumper stickers say: \"if going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to the garage make you a car?\" no! don\'t be afraid of searching and finding what\'s right for you. honestly, like Solid Snake stated, whether it be Goddess, God, Allah, Buddah, etc, it is simply a Higher Power who loves you and is not going to strike you down with a lightning bolt for not falling into one set belief. do what\'s right for you.


in the end, this is a trivial fight, because no one is ever going to agree, no matter how hard the evidence is, because for christians, the beliefs and laws and commandments and all that has been drilled into them since birth. i know, because my family is christian. i broke free from that because i KNEW that was not for me. just like a lot of christians feel other religions are not for them. and that\'s OKAY. we need to all realize we\'re not going to change each other, so we should stop trying. just look at the facts, keep open minds, and respect each other.

now, i\'ve stayed up way too long contemplating this and dishing out my opinion on this issue, so i will end it here. please, do not take what i said personally, or feel that i was bashing your religion in any way. honestly, as i\'ve stated a million times in here, RESPECT EACH OTHER. but also, please, respect the facts. it does not mean you are wrong, it does not mean you are right. it is just fact. i wish you all peace and Blessed Be.


oh, and by the way, great article!

first thing\'s first. i am not trying to convert anyone to paganism or any other religion. the only reason i am contributing to this forum is because i wanted to point out the defensiveness on the christians\' side. honestly, there are plain facts in front of you. the arguing should stop about what your Bible says. the Bible is NOT a factual book, as was stated before, and is considered faith-based, as was stated before. i personally am not disputing any beliefs on the christian side. i respect your religion, and am ashamed at how so many of you christians are so quick to put down something you know nothing about. now, if you\'ve done research and everything, and you\'re putting down facts, then that is understandable. but stop with the closed-mindedness. honestly, do you really agree with everything that the Bible says anyway? would you stone a man in public for being gay? would you stone your offspring, or your spouse, or your parents for believing in something besides christianity? that\'s what the Bible says to do in Deuteronomy. think about it. why would God say Thou Shalt Not Kill and then turn around and say \"hey, yeah, stone that guy to death for disobeying.\" in your religion, God states man will reap what they sow. it\'s a contradiction for Him to ask you to stone someone to death for \"sinning\".

grace- you stated, \"I heard of a man who died without Jesus and went to hell for eternity but while there he was crying to Jesus to take him back to earth for just a minute. Why? He would use that minute to accept Jesus and be saved. Thats\'s how terrible hell is my friend but then my hand s are tied its up to you.\" but i was wondering who has told you this? did the man himself come back from the dead and speak to you and tell you his story? or is this just another story from the Bible? as it has been said before in this forum many times, the Bible has not been documented as fact, so unless you spoke to this dead man yourself and have evidence, then your statement is also fictious. again, i am not saying your religion is fictious, but base your beliefs of why your religion is the ONLY religion off some pure, hardcore facts.

Mac- that is just disgusting to me how you can sit there and claim that your religion is truth and ours is \"made up\". are you even listening to yourself? all religion is a belief in something. there is no set religion. we all create our own beliefs, but i laugh because paganism came BEFORE christianity was ever thought of. you sit there and judge other people for something you know NOTHING about. we are not evil. we have done nothing to harm you or your religion in any way. honestly, we sit here stating FACTS and you turn blindly away, because you do not want to see what\'s so plainly written in history, what is the TRUTH (referring to paganism being older than christianity, and the Bible being a faith-based book, and not historically proven to be fact, etc). we are not saying your God is non-existent. we are not saying you are wrong. it is not only an important verse in your book to love your neighbor as thyself, but it is also in the Constitution (if you are American) to allow every person to have Freedom of Religion. do not bash our way of thinking because you do not believe in it. you feel threatened, and that is why you attack. but no one has threatened you. so take off the battle gear and respect other\'s opinions and beliefs.

April- read some of your other fellow christians\' comments. there are attempts at conversion left and right in this forum! Rick was a prime example for it, followed by grace. you all feel you need to threaten us to turn us into good little God-fearing children so we can avoid going to hell. i\'m sorry, but i know that hell does not exist, and that is my belief, and i do not push it on anyone, because i have respect for others. also, a little fact about Jesus, which has been proven: Jesus traveled through India and Tibet for 17 years, studying AND teaching buddhist and hindu holy men. look it up. point is, Jesus studied buddhism and hinduism and then went on to teach it to others. NOT christianity. Jesus had an open mind to other religions. why can\'t christians? why can\'t you?

Kel- i\'m not going to try to convert you or convince you that becoming pagan is the only way, because it\'s not. buddhism is a beautiful religion. there\'s wiccan, a newer form of paganism, with slightly different beliefs that deal more with nature, but stems from paganism. and of course, you are already christian. but why do you need a label? why can\'t you be a little bit of everything mixed together? i am spiritual. i believe in what i believe in, but if you present me with fact, hey, i can\'t argue with that. but i\'m not going to change my beliefs just because you present me with facts on another religion, just like i wouldn\'t ask anyone else to do that. for me, being spiritual, leaning more towards wiccan than pagan, i find i am a very positive person and am strong in who i am because i\'m strong in what i believe. i worship everywhere, as well. i don\'t have to go to a certain place to speak with the Goddess or God. as one of my bumper stickers say: \"if going to church makes you a christian, does that mean going to the garage make you a car?\" no! don\'t be afraid of searching and finding what\'s right for you. honestly, like Solid Snake stated, whether it be Goddess, God, Allah, Buddah, etc, it is simply a Higher Power who loves you and is not going to strike you down with a lightning bolt for not falling into one set belief. do what\'s right for you.


in the end, this is a trivial fight, because no one is ever going to agree, no matter how hard the evidence is, because for christians, the beliefs and laws and commandments and all that has been drilled into them since birth. i know, because my family is christian. i broke free from that because i KNEW that was not for me. just like a lot of christians feel other religions are not for them. and that\'s OKAY. we need to all realize we\'re not going to change each other, so we should stop trying. just look at the facts, keep open minds, and respect each other.

now, i\'ve stayed up way too long contemplating this and dishing out my opinion on this issue, so i will end it here. please, do not take what i said personally, or feel that i was bashing your religion in any way. honestly, as i\'ve stated a million times in here, RESPECT EACH OTHER. but also, please, respect the facts. it does not mean you are wrong, it does not mean you are right. it is just fact. i wish you all peace and Blessed Be.


oh, and by the way, great article!

I agree with you Annabelle. Great response. If only more people thought alike then there would be less hate in our world.

God Bless

Snake Out...

Wow... where to begin? First of all, I would like to say that I don't want to offend anyone, Not even "dild0headed Christian" *chuckle*. However it seems like some folks on both sides of the issue here are busy trying to call what they believe the "truth" (not everyone though, and for that I'm glad). While there are facts that can be backed up, I feel that as a Christian, I really don't have the right to make any such claims myself, but I have to ask my fellow Christians why they feel as if they hold some monopoly on right and wrong? I believe that Jesus died for our sins, but I wasn't there, so really, how could I ever say I "know" he did? I for one would not feel right saying to a Wiccan or a Muslim "what you think is wrong because I believe it is". All I'm saying is maybe we should just take a deep breath and try to be a little more civil towards those who see things differently than us. Oh, and while I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, Kel, maybe I'm wrong, but I think when Solomon wrote "test all and hold true that which is good" he meant even our own beliefs... at least it seems (in my rather fallible point of view) like that's the way it was meant.

i do believe that there is a higher power , rather it be of many or of just one , i don\'t know . all i know is that i am human , nothing more and nothing less. i was raised a catholic and there are alot and i do mean alot that i do not agree with i have studied christian religion and like many of you have stated it is a man made book they follow . i believe in treating and judging others by whom they are . live just live . if you have to force a person to believe in what you feel is right then their life is a lie . everyone has free will let them . i am neither pagan or christian although i do believe more in the pagan beliefs that doesn\'t mean i would ever condem a person for being christian nor do i believe i should be for what i believe . blessed be

All of the Christians who have entered on this page share the same defects as most christians : Arrogance and closed mindedness, also most of your information sounds unresearched and biased. I feel that no on has the right to comment or argue about something unless they are educated. The truth is Christians did steal traditions from other beliefs systems in order for it to be easier to convert them. As stated above Christianity is a young religion in the scope of the worlds history. Our ways of the old gods have been reduced to not much more than what are considered fairy tales by most people. People of old died for these beliefs because their faith was so strong. If you look into the Eddas (norse texts) You will find that Odin was tied to the tree Yggrisil with a spear wound in his side as a self sacrifice. Not much unlike Christ. You must also remember that for every book about Jesus in the bible there are another ten that were not deemed \"holy\" enough to be in the bible. In most of those books it is said that Jesus was a good man, but just that a man.

Many are missing a key insight here. Jesus never lived, he was a created being by the gnostic christian sect. He is another in a long line of sun gods. That is why all the connections with pagan beliefs to make it more pallatable for new converts. The \"Christian Religion\" was created by Constantine and other romans for political purposes. Many Christians at the time did not believe Jesus was god, and some that he ever lived. He was a mythical being. That is exactly what Paul thought. Paul never talks about mary, joseph, a stable, or almost any of the christmas story stuff. Or Herod etc. All of Paul\'s writting came BEFORE Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. That\'s another trick (the whole thing really is) but they put those books first as if they were writting a book and that was the preface or the setting of the story. When in fact Paul probably had never saw or heard of these books. The book of John was written between 70 CE - 120 CE. Even Christian theologians of all stripes now accept this, although they will say 70 CE. Pauls books are around 50CE. Most Christians think they know what the bible says, but through the eyes of their pastor. Advise, throw away your translation bibles and the one\'s that are actual translations. Paul said in Hebrews 8:4 for if he were on earth he would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law. please explain..... Another good one if Jesus was god because he had no father(bogus), then tell me who Melchizdek is. in hebrews 7 1-3 it says that this man, the high priest of Salam, had no beginning and no end, no mother and no father. that abraham gave tithes to him, he was like the son of god ethernal. explain.....

Mac- i can\'t believe you think that way! how do you know those gods aren\'t real for petes sake! how the hell could paganism be just made up? it was around centuries b-4 christianity and if you don\'t believe me than look in any multicultural NON ONE-SIDED history book and you\'ll see all the religions before it! i\'m not against it but i never fit in to it. paganism is not evil and it does not contradict itself. as for all ur examples, they\'re just a pile of lies made to make paganism LOOK EVIL! just because we\'re pagan doesn\'t mean we\'re against christianity. it doesn\'t maen we\'re unpleasant ppl. doesn\'t mean WE\'RE SINNERS
April- god u need to see the world u nvr heard of the things christian churches did 2 ppl just cause they wrnt christian? \"the chirstian way\" everything was covered up when the churches lectured every1 who came to be christian and then FORGOT WHAT JESUS SAID!
Rick-ok you know NOTHING about paganism!

did you know the image of isis osiris and horus was borrowed and made into the image of the holy family (Mary, Joseph, Jesus) not that i disrespect jesus, i just don't think of him as my savior

i am pagan and i'm PROUD OF IT!

Aright every one take a deep breath and hear me. We MUST love each other. We are dragging our faiths through the mud. The Goddess is about love and so is Jesus, see one thing we have in common with each other. Arguing wont do us any good, we must unite and be strong and set examples of love to our children, or do we want to be remembered as hate mongers?

i agree with envy green. sorry ppl

I take it "who said that" is atheist?
I agree with Envy Green. Love is one thing we all know in some way, shape, or form. Even serial killers love something (i.e. killing people perhaps). Whether or not they love "someone" is a different question. I think we can all agree that love is real, though. And we all worship It/Him, because we all seek what we love. It's really not complicated.

Mellowmaniac, I think you have said the most valuable comment on this comment board, that all you need is love. well said!

The alleged \'Holy Bible\' and Christianity? \"The Greatest Fraud Ever Sold\" However, as crutches for those who were born into either or both, either and/or both serve a purpose. Religion is an emotional activity NOT a rational activity. Most people believe in God because they\'ve been taught to believe in God. Never during my formative years in Catholicism did any nun or preist ever say to me: \"Billy, what do you think of the virgin birth, the resurrection or any of the \'truths\' pumped into my
blank-tape mind: they just kept filling it up with unproveable
nonsense. It\'s take my 80+ years to deprogramm myself.

I just wanted to say that reading this makes me extremly ashamed of being on the same plane of existence as i dont know.. MAC and Raquel.. Rick. I have never been so disgusted by stupidity in my life, i can speak for almost everyone but you that all we want is peace, love, and tollerance. why is that so much to ask? are we slaves that are untitled to our own opinions! first of all Raquel before you start ranting about how \"CHRISTIANS WERE FIRTST AND >>> YEA WE ARE LIKE RIGHT AND STUFF\" freaking read, it wasn\'t first... at all. its actually really new compared to every other relegion out there, and you put christians to shame because i know for sure they are aware of that fact. MAC could you be less smart please! its hurting my head so bad when i read all your great facts about how pagans are wrong and evil and were right... and they are evil.. cuz they are... and we are right.. and they are evil and wrong.. and... NO! when we say things are good but bad its a balance A NATURAL AND BEAUTIFUl BALANCE OF NATURE. you live in nature, shouldnt you at least respect it. and you dont even know what we believe in, not all of us believe in many gods, some do, some believe in jesus, it varies. and FINALLY THEY WERE PAGAN HOLIDAYS. jesus was not born december 25, or as some stupid person but the 30th.. what??? the 30th hahaha. they MADE THAT UP to distract from our pagan traditions and make it easier to convert to christianity. people say jesus was born in MARCH. and all the holidays you celebrate have roots from our rituals, and you really shouldnt celebrate samhain or HALLOWEEN if your going to put down our beliefs so much... thats a little hypocritical dont you think? thats a new year for us, but because of people like you who make it so much harder to understand what we really believe in, people have no idea. ON A FINAL NOTE, why have you been defending so.. quickly and downing us if you don\'t have doubts yourself... all i see coming from pagan tolerance.. is pagan tolerance.. not saying all christians will suffer muahahah. we like to be a little open-minded. i hope you find peace within yourself and the ability to accept and love.
blessed be

Well Envy Green, seems we agree, now if only we can get some discussion on the original topic without hatefests erupting...

I agree,Quiet Christian, lets get back on discussion on the original topic. I think that the writer spent the time to get the facts straight and I think thats a nice change of pace compared to the garbage floating
on the net.

GO GI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everyone google Oomoto. it's a Japanese religion/organization devoted to art and humanity. it's main goals are to strengthen all things good and create religious and racial unity (world unity) it's founder Nao deguchi pradicted the atom bomb and many other events. she received holy transmissions from the being who is said to be the protecter of the world. they support all around peace :)

I don't agree that these practices are evil but the writer raises a good point about the celebrations we take for granted. When I first announced that I was converting into a branch of Pagan faith, my friend said 'But you'll still be celebrating Easter right?' If only I knew better... ^_^

Although I respect the Christian views on Paganism, I don't that everything remotely associated with pagans should be declared evil. Yes - magic and ritual - but wreaths, holly and mistletoe? They are just reflections of winter and if people want to replace nativity and angels with pinecones and snow, perhaps they might want re think where their faith is and what they really want to celebrate.

Ok... Where is the proof? Where is the proof that really declares there is only ONE god? Eh? Don\\\'t quote bible verses either, I have read the bible, I know what it says, but where is the proof? I have nothing againts Christians being an ex one myself, but none of it made since, for once god delcares in one of the 10 commadments and I quote \\\"And there shall be no other Gods BEFORE me.\\\" right there is proof that other gods do exsist! Everything in the bible, holidays specificly, are all take from the Pagan Religion, the first religion, not after Christaity. BEFORE. So when you can proof to me, like acctually PROVE to me there is only one, then consider me a saint, untill then, go rot in your nonexsitsing hell =) Blessed Be! \\\"An\\\' ye harm none\\\"

The Article here mentions many similarities between ancient pagan traditions and Christianity, and argues that Christianity has borrowed, inherited, or brazenly stole these traditions (depending on how the different pagan commentators choose to interpret the article and explain these similarities) while claiming them as original to Christianity.
Certainly it is the case that history and archaeological evidence demonstrates that there were religions prior to Christianity. Judaism, of course is one that was prior to Christianity and one which Christianity descended from.
The first recorded monotheistic religion was actually Egyptian and it is believed that it was this monotheism that was adopted by the Jewish tribes.
While the Bible indicates that monotheism was around before Abraham, it is Abraham who becomes the patriarch of Judaism and later, Christianity, and it was Abraham who went into Egypt because of a famine in the land. Moses was raised as an Egyptian and had privileged access to Egyptian religious secrets. Thus it becomes possible to speculate that the monotheism of the Jews was adopted from the Egyptian Monotheism that Archaeology has dated to a time when the Jewish tribes interacted with Egyptian culture, although they were despised by the Egyptians for their lifestyle.
Now, many Christians claim that those religions that existed prior to Christ, and which bear similarity with Christianity are only the remnants of the true religion after being corrupted. That is, those pagan elements that are believed to have been adopted by Christianity are what remained of the true religion after the flood, the destruction of the tower of Babel and the scattering of peoples and the confusion of tongues, and that these pagan religions are merely a corrupt form of the true religion that preceded them. Proof, of course, is lacking only to the extent that archaeology has not yet uncovered it. The archaeological evidence for the monotheism that existed in Egypt was only found after it was discovered that it had been covered up, monuments and statues defaced, and records changed.
With regard to the god of the old testament who seems extremely bloodthirsty, we should also keep in mind that the pagans of the time were also bloodthirsty.
For the Odonite who commented here, it should be remebered that Odin was originally a war god and it is only warriors killed in battle who get into Valhalla. What happens to the more peaceful members?
All of the atrocities leveled at Christianity can also be leveled at many pagan religions. Early Christians were fed to lions, made to fight and die in the Roman colliseum for the entertainment of spectators, persecuted and executed for their religious beliefs.
While many of the claims that Christians make about the truths of their theology can not be proven by facts, nor can the spiritual or transcendental truths of any other religion, Christianity is a historical fact as a religion that has existed since the time of Christ (whether he existed or not) and is evidenced by the historical records of their persecution even if you don\'t accept their own account. It is also also of historical record that Judaism existed whether you accept their account or not. While there is no archaeological evidence of them prior to them being obscurely mentioned in an Egyptian record, to simply claim that they did not exist because there is nor evidence is like saying that the American Indian Lakota tribe did not exist until they showed up on the American plains, and were encountered by white explorers. After all, the archaeological evidence only indicates changes in technology and the migration of that technology. But, just because technology migrates doesn\'t mean the people who created it did so as well.
How evidence is interpreted is not always the correct interpretation.
As to the current standing of religious beliefs today, it is important to keep in mind that modern paganism is not idential to ancient paganism, rather, modern paganism is often an interpretation of ancient paganism just as Christianity interprets ancient Judaism as Christianity, or will claim that Abraham was a Chrstian, while disallowing modern Judaism as Christian. Mostly because modern Judaism does not accept Christ even though they still believe in the coming of the Messiah. Personally, I find it difficult to see the distinction between ancient and modern Judaism based on that criteria since the Jews prior to Christ believed in the coming of the Messiah and had not accepted Christ since he had not come yet either.
In any case, these arguments for historical validity become pointless when it is accepted that all religions are matters of faith and not fact. Can an Odonite, or a Wiccan prove that their Gods factually exist? If facts are all that count, then we all should be atheists.

P.S.
As an afterthought, I think it important to point out that the one explanation I gave for the similarities between Christianity and various pagan religions is not the only possible explanation from a Christian perspective. It has also been argued, by Justin Martyr, that these similarities where the pagan belief precedes the coming of Christ, that these pagan beliefs are the counterfeit work of the devil who knowing the prophecies of the Bible has attempted to imitate them and lead people into errors and false beliefs.

in the end, we are all human. we are all the same, we all have the same blood, the same bones, we are equals. whether our ancestors were bloodthirsty or peaceful, that is not the point. religion will never be perfect, because we are human, and as humans, we are NOT perfect and we make mistakes. the point is, as envy green has stated, that both the Goddess and Jesus alike are loving, and that is the message that should be spread in the end. we should not be concerning ourselves as to who is right or who is wrong, because we will never come up with an answer. it is a useless, trivial argument as i stated before, and we will never come to a conclusion. the only conclusion that i do agree upon, though, is that we need to love each other, no matter what we believe in, who we are, what we do, what we look like, no matter what. love is universal, and needs to be the key point here because it is what brings people together. in the end, even history is flawed and tampered with. it will be an endless argument if we continue with "who is right, who is wrong." it does not matter, as long as everyone has their own faiths, their own beliefs, and we respect each other, and love one another no matter what we believe in, because in the end we are all the same. we are human. and we are loved by Whomever we believe in. that is all that matters.

as to what the writer has put, this was a very good article, and in the end, i believe it shows how SIMILAR both Christians and Pagans are. and that it is not a bad thing to be alike, and take things from each other, use things from each other, because that's how humans learn, isn't it? we learn from each other. no religion is right or wrong. in the end, we all come from the same thing. a Higher Power who made us with love and wants us to love one another just as deeply as They love us.

Hmm... Annabelle, if we realized how similar we all are then we wouldn't have as much to yell about, no wait... that's a good thing huh? :) Ghostrider, I find myself really liking your post, you seem to have put a lot of thought into this, it seems to me that early Christians were a little more open minded (if even only a VERY little) towards the beliefs around them and actively looked for the ones they could assimilate into their own point of view (though I prefer the word "adopted" rather than stole), a good example of this would, ironically, be Hell. Of the three words translated into Hell, one was "Hades". This was a Greek idea, no? Even the word "Hell" itself... well, didn't the Norse believe in a place (and a goddess) named Hel? I don't think adding an extra letter made the idea ours, but what if it's just a case of using other religion\'s terms to describe what was already a part of Judeo-Christianity? Maybe even helped in describing what folks believed... and of course who can say what Judeo-Christianity itself may have grown out of (though I dare say some of my fellow Christians would be willing to call that blasphemy, I follow the "test all" rule on this one).

Judeo-Christianity, by some, is believed to have been born out of Egyptian traditions. The ten commandments are a derivative of the Book of the Dead, specifically the Declaration of Innocence wherein they say:
\"...I have done no falsehood\"
\"...I have not robbed\"
\"...I have not killed men\"
and so on. To read them for yourself you may go to:
http://www.touregypt.net/bod3.htm
As this is the basis of the Torah, which in it contains the laws of the Jews and is subsequently the basis for all Christianity, some might think this is sufficient. I was convinced on less, however, many have problems making the connection between these two ancient religions, so i will give another example. Horus is the Egyptian God of the Sun. He preceded the man Jesus by a few thousand years. Horus was born of a virgin and the announcement of this birth was brought by an angel, his birth is celebrated on the 21-25 of December and was hailed by the dog star Sirius in the east. Shepherds witnessed his birth and he was later visited by three solar deities. During his stay at the cave in which he was born, the king over the area Herut, tried to have him killed. An angel came to his mother and warned her to flee. When he became twelve, he went to a temple and after there was little information on him until he was thirty. At that time he was baptized in the river Eridanus by Anup the Baptizer who was later beheaded. He was later taken up a mountain and tempted by Set but ultimately resisted the temptation. He amassed 12 disciples and continued to preform miracles such as walking on water, healing the sick, casting out demons and making the blind see. He even raised his dead father. He was crucified next to two thieves and buried in a tomb, from whence he descended into the underworld and rose again in three days. The first to announce his resurrection where women and he was said to rule for the next thousand years. He was known as the Lamb of God, the good shepherd, the bread of life and the Word. He was KRST, the anointed one, the messiah and savior of all mankind.
Of course there are a couple of things being contested, such as the virgin birth and 12 disciples (some believe he had 4 celestial disciples and 16 human), nevertheless the parallels between these two are numerous. You can see other similarities at: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
Anyway, I hope this helps with the thread.

Blessed Be

What you believe is all a bunch of intellectual stimulation designed to bolster you emotional ego

unless

You can consistently, and reliably produce spiritual manifestation on command. Then it is a matter of what possible use such manifestation would have.

Example:
I have never seen any witches leviate over the flood waters to rescue stranded people from the roofs of thier houses.

If a religious system at least tries to make the world a better place, it speaks loudly for it. If a religious system is secretive and subversive that also speaks loudly for it (for those that pay attention). Occult practitioners are typically more interested in their own agradizement. When was the last time you heard of the Wiccan non-profit organization for helping unwed mothers, or the Wiccan hunger relief organization.

These are just indications. The real test for any religious system is SHOW ME SOMETHING! If there is no solid, consistent, repeatable, beneficial and obviously spiritual manifestation then you are a FAKE and your system is for emotional stroking.

Well it seems the Christians have fallen out of the argument. Well except for QuietChristian whom i have to say is one of the most rational ones I\'ve seen in a while. Thank you so much for not banishing us to the gates of hell for not quite sharing your beliefs :) We can all use a little less negativity being directed towards us. I do no even try to have these debates with Christians anymore. I have found that regardless of how illogical it obviously is, they will not see it. If they did then their lives have been lived in deprivation, suppression and fear this whole time, and it would have all been for nothing. And that would also alter their perspective on lost loved ones whom they were so sure would be at the pearly gates by now, walking hand in hand with God himself.
It feels like I\'m arguing with a child, whenever I try to hold an intelligent debate with them. \"Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!\" Lol.
Thanks so much for the great article. And thanks to my fellow pagans for not stooping to their level of ignorant arguing. Blessed Be!

When people think that they have some "divine" right to persecute,starve,torture people to "covert" people is plain wrong. I view that practice as the most barbaric, inhumane, disrespectful means of conversion. I think if Christians were at least abit serious about what they do they would accept the faith arund them as possible paths for people and merely lead lives to their faith. I a person like it and feels it is right then yay for them, butwhen you come into someones face telling them they will burn in hell and how wrong their beliefs are, well you wont get very far. sry for typos sticky keys

Hey Jeff, We don\\\'t have to be an organization to give back to our communities. Also you are probably the type of person who gives back to make them feel good about yourself. So how does it feel that you are stroking your own ego? How about you give back for the sake of giving back and not for the reason that it is behind your organized religion where you probably feel obligated to anyways. Organized religion is just a way for you to pay for your sins on sunday. You probably are a weekend warrior anyways. Good on sunday, then monday rolls around and you become ignorant and judgemental.

Also I have given money to help support your organizations for these types of topics. So try bringing something else up that we don\\\'t do. We give back. More than you know, we don\\\'t have to stand behind our religion to do so.

I spent alot of time reading these posts. Gotta say that all religion, all faith is made by man ( meaning human, don't get all pissed off ladies) and was a way for some ruler to control the masses.
It seems to me that "religion" is more of a guide for people to try live there lives, in a good way. All the rules from different religions are basically the same. Be a good person, a set of moral rules to follow.
Stop your petty arguments (yeah yeah I know " We can say anything we want, it's a free country" yada yada yada)